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  #21  
Old 01-26-2017, 04:03 PM
joe joe is offline
 
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Location: PNWet, USA
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Yeah you got a mess for sure. I'm no electricity guy but for me there are waay too many limp splices in there along with aftermarket parts that may/or may not belong. Just from your pics I'd build or buy a new harness. Prolly get away with at least removing the spliced wires and replacing with correct gauge full length wire and correct connections. Mr. Serehill in reply #8 is exponentially smarter with 12vdc than I could ever hope to be. I would answer his PM and listen to his recommendations. All I got is: quit worrying about or planning modifications/upgrades till you have a firm grip on what the problem really is, besides the obvious DSPO butchered wiring. My little brain hurts just looking at your pics. Best of luck.
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  #22  
Old 01-26-2017, 07:36 PM
WrenchMonkey WrenchMonkey is offline
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Yeah, it's a party all right. I've got a twelve circuit harness in route, no telling when I'll be able to get it in though, so some bandaids for now.

More questions, I have the green field wire plugged onto the alternator but the alternator doesn't seem to be activating. It maintained a steady 12v but I don't know if that's just the battery, typically I'm used to seeing alt's push 14v ish.


With the ignition off I'm still seeing 12v at the dash, because everything is on the hot side. Neither vertical post of the solenoid receives power with the ignition at the "on" position, I feel like I'm missing something.

I switched the wires around so the positive is battery side, ground opposite. Still starts up just fine. Drove down the road just to make sure there was no rpm threshold to cross before alt worked. Maintained twelve and that was it. I'm about to go back out and see if it's gone down at all, probably pull the neg off the battery for overnight. No time to keep troubleshooting, I'm way behind in my classes.
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  #23  
Old 01-26-2017, 08:01 PM
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R69US R69US is offline
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Sounds like you're on the way towards getting it going.
I don't know what alternator setup you're running, but unless it's a one-wire kinda deal it's going to need something in the circuit to excite it. Usually the alt or gen light on the dash unless someone put a resistor in line somewhere, or sometimes the ammeter circuit can do it.

Also, I might of missed it, but do you know (or did someone help out with) how to find a draw in the system? I usually use a volt meter but a test light works well too. Then, you can usually pull fuses one by one till you find the circuit causing trouble.
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  #24  
Old 01-26-2017, 08:03 PM
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R69US R69US is offline
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And yes, alternator's not charging if you're only seeing 12V. It needs to be 13.5-14.5 or so to charge.
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  #25  
Old 01-26-2017, 11:12 PM
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nograin nograin is offline
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12 volts
As others said, 12 volts is battery. So yes, it should be close to 14 running, sometimes a little less at idle.

Green Field Wire
A little web search shows that you got a '65 Amp' Motorola Alternator which is essentially correct for your truck. (only the 6 cylinder trucks got the internally regulated alternator)

When the ignition is switched to RUN, there should be battery voltage at the Field terminal. If not, see if there is voltage at the wire feeding the Voltage regulator. I beleive this diagram is basically how it should be arragned. IGN position on the switch is what I call RUN.





Quote:
With the ignition off I'm still seeing 12v at the dash, because everything is on the hot side.
Not sure if this is a problem. The heavy wire from the battery to the ammeter is always hot. Power to the lights, stater switch, and maybe a few other circuits like horn is always available through the ammeter.

Quote:
Neither vertical post of the solenoid receives power with the ignition at the "on" position, I feel like I'm missing something.
You did. The posts on the solenoid relay are only hot when the ignition switch is held in the START position.

Quote:
. I'm about to go back out and see if it's gone down at all, probably pull the neg off the battery for overnight.
Can't hurt. Possibly one of the extra wires sandwiched on the battery cable lug should be on the RUN (or IGN) wire. In any event, they should be on the other side of a slow fuse or fusible link.

To troubleshoot the charging. If you find there is no voltage at the on wire feeding the alternator Field (in RUN), then check if the Voltage Regulator is getting 12 Volts.

It looks like (based on the above diagram) that this regulator controls the hot to the Field. If so, then you could jump out the regulator and feed 12 volts to the field to see if the alternator works. Then you can be pretty certain its the voltage regulator that's bad. Don't run it jumped any length of time, especially on a depleted battery. Charge it up on charger.
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Last edited by nograin : 01-27-2017 at 08:29 PM.
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  #26  
Old 01-27-2017, 04:23 PM
WrenchMonkey WrenchMonkey is offline
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So I have the "start" wire on the solenoid but I do not have the "ignition" wire, which I presume is the "on" I've been looking for?

I no longer have an ignition resistor as that was part of the old coil, is that a problem? I'm picking up some new 10awg and the fusible links (mine were melted to the harness loom) soon, I've got the new harness but want to wait until my backup is running before I dig in. I'm still having issues with the field winding not engaging, but I think that's because the VR isn't connected to the ignition at all. I'm also going to take some pictures of some plugs I can't identify and try to hook up my other gauges. It'll be nice to have temp and oil again.
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  #27  
Old 01-27-2017, 06:51 PM
WrenchMonkey WrenchMonkey is offline
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So chasing the ignition wires led me to the ignition switch, which I just so happened to have a new one of from when I replaced the ignition. I recall the whole steering wheel removal process being a significant pain in the rear

the actuator rod of the steering column has disconnected from the ignition switch rack gear inside the steering column. Before too many brain cells die from TELL me there's a trick to reconnecting it without removing the steering wheel and everything inbetween...

I seriously don't want to take the column apart.. Push button starter time?
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1977 J20 w/ the 360 V8 with 304 heads formerly known as "401"....
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Last edited by WrenchMonkey : 01-27-2017 at 07:37 PM.
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  #28  
Old 01-27-2017, 08:39 PM
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serehill serehill is offline
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good deal

If you followed the threads on the ammeter bypass then you're good.The alternator is grounded through the bracket & you can bolt your battery ground to that bolt. Just run a wire from he back of the alternator to the battery side of the solenoid for the charging circuit run new wire to where the red spliced into the mess & tidy up.

then

:d rivin::f sj:
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360 ci 727 with
Comp cams 270 h
NP208
Edlebrock performer intake
Holley 4180
Msd total multi spark.
4" rusty's springs
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If you can't make it better why waste your time. No use repeating the orignal mistakes. I'm to old to push it that's why.

Last edited by serehill : 02-03-2017 at 07:26 AM.
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  #29  
Old 01-27-2017, 09:15 PM
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nograin nograin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WrenchMonkey
So I have the "start" wire on the solenoid but I do not have the "ignition" wire, which I presume is the "on" I've been looking for?
You'll find this easier if you make operational diagrams. Copy the drawing and color the wires that are hot when the ignition switch is on.
That said, I'm not sure why you're looking for an "on" on the starter relay.

Quote:
I no longer have an ignition resistor as that was part of the old coil, is that a problem?
Are you looking at the diagram I posted above? That's similar but not the same as your J truck. It is handy because most of the work of simplifying has been done. The charging circuit is the same. But the ignition in that diagram is for a points ignition.
Most older ignitions had a resistor (or two) which reduced voltage to the points (or ECU) and coil while running. But when starting, the resistor was bypassed so the coil would get full battery voltage.

The diagrams for your '78 will show if it had resistance wires or resistors. If you look at my simplified diagram for an '85, you'll see the Duraspark systems have two resistance wires. Your HEI may not need reduced voltage. In any event, since the ignition is working, my suggesions is to leave it be for now.

Quote:
I'm still having issues with the field winding not engaging, but I think that's because the VR isn't connected to the ignition at all.
My suggestion was to use a volt meter to figure this out.

Also with the engine off, you can use an ohmeter or test light to see if the wire and connection is intact. Use the '78 diagrams are your starting point. It will indicate where in the firewall connector each wire you trace goes (or did). Say there's no voltage on the green Field wire. You check at the voltage reg, and there's no voltage in or out. So then go the firewall and check the terminal there.

Serehill or Tripwire would be good help to get you through this.
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body by beer (PO)
carries wood inside
no "wood" outside
My other car is a fish
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  #30  
Old 01-27-2017, 09:22 PM
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nograin nograin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WrenchMonkey
TELL me there's a trick to reconnecting it without removing the steering wheel and everything inbetween...
Try starting a seperate thread on this. It's been 16 years since I went into the column and joined IFSJA. Didn't have that issue and there's probably column differences anyway.. Sorry can't help on that. If you can pull the connector you can always put some jumpers in etc like you say.
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no "wood" outside
My other car is a fish
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  #31  
Old 01-29-2017, 03:41 PM
WrenchMonkey WrenchMonkey is offline
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So I've been goofing with the truck all day but something I'm trying to understand is the "run" circuit. That's what I've been looking for my lights and for starting the field windings so the alternator will charge. There's supposed to be another wire besides the little blue one that goes from the ignition to the VR.

With my ignition currently decommed from that actuator rod problem I'm planning on putting in a push button, which is easy enough, source 12v power and send it to sillinoid with little blue wire already in place. But that still leaves me up a creek with no paddle in regards to initializing the field winding. What do I need to do to send a massage to the alternator to "do work"?
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  #32  
Old 01-29-2017, 05:20 PM
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nograin nograin is offline
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Wire #13, 13A is run.
43 and 40 power and sense for the VR
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My other car is a fish
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  #33  
Old 01-29-2017, 07:47 PM
WrenchMonkey WrenchMonkey is offline
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Alternator WORKS, finally! Plugged the two wires from VR to power and boom, 14ish volts at idle.

No ignition, no problem, just jump the S terminal... but how to kill the engine after you've already pulled the battery out?

I pulled positive wire from the Dizzy, which isn't fun given it's proximity to the fan and the fact that I do not have small hands

So, I have an ignition style push button, standard non-latching push style. If I understand correctly I can basically plug it into the wire that goes to the S terminal and start the engine from in the cab again... but how to kill the motor without unplugging stuff? It'd be real nice if that Expletive Deleted!Expletive Deleted!Expletive Deleted!Expletive Deleted! actuator rod didn't decide to go awol on me. Although the actual ignition is still "plugged in" the key positions and the presence of the key at all seem to be completely irrelevant to Diablo at this point. I'd have figured some functionality would remain but I guess that switch is kind of a big deal.

And another thing, as you look at the dash, the lowest (ie closet to ground) accessory knobs on either side of the steering column, wth are those and how can you pull them out? Giving the kind of line connected to it my best guess is hood release and manual choke? Or something along those lines. Neither one does anything for me, but I would like to put the ignition button in one of those locations. Or pull the lighter plug but I couldn't figure that out either, these switches are difficult to get to and worse to remove.

I asked instead of researched because most images confused me with too much going on, this image changed everything, too easy to understand lol.



still how to move those unused accessory switch things? I don't have a drill big enough to make a hole for this button,
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Last edited by WrenchMonkey : 01-29-2017 at 07:58 PM.
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  #34  
Old 01-30-2017, 01:59 PM
ShagWagon ShagWagon is offline
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The Squid launchers have a big nut on the back of them and are connected to your fresh air vents with cables.

If you got your alternator working why not get your steering column and ignition working right too?

Yeah you have to go into Dantes Inferno to do it and pull the steering wheel I'm sure but then it will work properly with the key like it should. You might even find 6 other things wrong in there too.
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  #35  
Old 01-30-2017, 05:26 PM
WrenchMonkey WrenchMonkey is offline
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that's what I'm afraid of! LOL

Seriously, I bought a steering wheel puller when I need to replace the ignition cylinder lock, during removal it bent the bolts out of shape... "grade 8" bolts, mind. But really that only made disassembling the wheel puller from the wheel a big PITA, the worst part of the project was trying to reinstall that compression spring without any device to compress it... I recall much swearing, wrestling, and general violence. But eventually I won... and now after all the work I don't even need to put the key in the ignition...

SOB, I should just fix that. But not now. I don't know if it's just a matter of reconnecting that actuator rod or buying rare parts most people never break.. but either way I won't know until I take it apart, if I take it apart I can't drive it and it's not going back together without the parts so projects like that get pushed until my real daily driver gets out of the shop.

Today was quite successful though. I still have no idea what those pull knobs on either side of the steering wheel were but I found out if you DGAF you can just hit the rod with a hammer once or twice and the 40 year old plastic on the back disintegrates, super easy. Of course I figured that out after spending far too much time trying to get a pair of pliers at the right angle to squeeze the plastic from behind..

Anyways I wanted those holes, now I have a kill switch for the dizzy and a pushbutton ignition for the starter, my alternator still works and I replaced the dimmer switch which majikly repaired my headlight problem. Now if only I could get my windshield wipers to work I'd be close to golden.

tried fabricating a stand alone circuit for the windshield wipers. I'm not certain what exactly I did wrong but I definitely did something wrong and that's pretty much the last time I try to do that.
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  #36  
Old 01-31-2017, 07:51 AM
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serehill serehill is offline
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fyi

http://street2mud.com/webfiles/Tilt%20Column%20Fix.pdf
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80 Cherokee
360 ci 727 with
Comp cams 270 h
NP208
Edlebrock performer intake
Holley 4180
Msd total multi spark.
4" rusty's springs
Member, FSJ Prissy Restoration Association

If you can't make it better why waste your time. No use repeating the orignal mistakes. I'm to old to push it that's why.
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  #37  
Old 01-31-2017, 07:48 PM
WrenchMonkey WrenchMonkey is offline
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Great link, Serehill, I've got it bookmarked.

So I'm still having parasitic power loss issues. Drains the battery overnight,

So I rig my POS multimeter in series from the battery to ground and measure around about 300milli amps, and rapidly decreasing, and by rapidly I mean if you were to say the numbers an auctioner would have a hard time..


I start pulling fuses and trying to keep track of what's going on on, I get to the windshield wiper fuse and struggling to pull it out without breaking it (I'm running low on fuses) and she arcs at some point and kills my multimeter. I don't have the kind of fuses this POS takes and it's not the first time I've had to replace it, blade style fuses are much cheaper so I pushed over the tabs for the glass style and dremeled a slot in the side, blade fuse hack!





anyways it's dark and cold outside, so that's where I'm at now. But anyways, if it IS the wiper circuit that's draining my system... I currently have NO wiper switch, I have no wires connected to my wiper motor ... so what's likely to be happening? any input?
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  #38  
Old 02-01-2017, 03:03 PM
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Woodchomper Woodchomper is offline
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Not sure if you figured out your run on issue with the engine staying on with the key turned off but some HEI conversions require a diode placed in the alternator wiring to prevent that run-on condition.

See post #2 of this link for the fix.
http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f8/du...supply-845594/

I thought IFSJA had a post that talked about this subject but I couldn't find it.

Anyway, it looks like you are making good progress. Soon you will be the expert on this subject.
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  #39  
Old 02-03-2017, 08:03 AM
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serehill serehill is offline
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yup

Hope you swapped to a Delco but it doesn't sound like you did.
If you did this is the fix.


http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/t...th-key.389737/
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80 Cherokee
360 ci 727 with
Comp cams 270 h
NP208
Edlebrock performer intake
Holley 4180
Msd total multi spark.
4" rusty's springs
Member, FSJ Prissy Restoration Association

If you can't make it better why waste your time. No use repeating the orignal mistakes. I'm to old to push it that's why.
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  #40  
Old 02-03-2017, 04:22 PM
Joe Guilbeau Joe Guilbeau is offline
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Instead of cooking off your fuses in the multimeter, try wiring a 12Vdc bulb socket in series where you would have put the multimeter.

It will easily light the bulb with 300ma running through it.

Now you can remote mount it to where you can see, and when you find the short and remove it, the bulb will go out.

Easy-peasy-lemon-squeezy

...AND if you really need to get the harness squared away, go to a junk yard and pull the engine bay connector with all of the wiring and connectors intact from a junkyard.

Buy yourself a plywood 5/8" sheet and use 6-inch finishing nails to lay out the harness spread out like the branches of a tree.

Buy yourself some wire and use bare metal butt splice connectors to replace the wires (splice/crimp/solder/adhesive heat shrink) one at a time.

If the connector is in good shape splice it in, but a better option is to replace all connectors and ring and spade terminals.

Easy to do if you run one wire at a time, just cut one wire out of the harness and replace it. Then move on to the next wire.

I built prototype wiring harnesses for GM, Ford and Toyota for dual fuel conversions for V-6 and V-10 engines.

One step at a time will get her done.
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