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  #21  
Old 03-09-2013, 12:02 PM
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serehill serehill is offline
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Very smart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnQ
Serehill,

Thanks for the input. I'll have to double check the voltage when I get off of duty on monday.

I am going through all of the wires, changing any butt connectors for soldered joints with heat shrink. Trying to do this one time, and be done!


I'll keep you informed.

On another note- can you buy the factory style harness plugs like the ones found on the distributor wiring, a/c low pressure switch, etc? Or am I stuck trying to reuse the originals or replace them with something different?



This is what a cs 130 looks lie & yours might be. A cs144 is larger.



Soldering is the best I would change out the brown though. Good luck & ther process of elimnation may keep you from whacking another alternator if it is indeed bad. It still looks realy big for a cs130.
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80 Cherokee
360 ci 727 with
Comp cams 270 h
NP208
Edlebrock performer intake
Holley 4180
Msd total multi spark.
4" rusty's springs
Member, FSJ Prissy Restoration Association

If you can't make it better why waste your time. No use repeating the orignal mistakes. I'm to old to push it that's why.

Last edited by serehill : 03-09-2013 at 12:07 PM.
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  #22  
Old 03-09-2013, 12:21 PM
ShawnQ ShawnQ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serehill
This is what a cs 130 looks lie & yours might be. A cs144 is larger.



Soldering is the best I would change out the brown though. Good luck & ther process of elimnation may keep you from whacking another alternator if it is indeed bad. It still looks realy big for a cs130.

My GW came with fog lights, trailer towing pkg, etc - so there is a chance it may have the larger factory alt.

I'll give more details when I get home.
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  #23  
Old 03-09-2013, 12:32 PM
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jaber jaber is offline
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I have been through many 70's and 80's wire harnesses, both FSJ and CJ and can attest to the "duct tape" is factory.
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  #24  
Old 03-09-2013, 12:44 PM
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babywag babywag is offline
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Your alternator looks like the factory 12si model.

You can buy new wiring plugs/pigtails.
NAPA can get them, if the counter guy can use a book.
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  #25  
Old 03-09-2013, 12:47 PM
ShawnQ ShawnQ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaber
I have been through many 70's and 80's wire harnesses, both FSJ and CJ and can attest to the "duct tape" is factory.

I'm amazed by this...
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  #26  
Old 03-09-2013, 03:55 PM
ShawnQ ShawnQ is offline
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I went through a schematic I found and color coded it to the wiring on my Jeep.

If you look at the brown resistance wire, and the red resistance wire (should be yellow according to schematic), on my jeep, there are no resistors inline.

Is the resistor built in as a part of the 2prong plug on the alternator?

Are the wires themselves supposed to add resistance to these circuits?

How do I check this?

I know the red wire was added, but the brown one appears original

I think this may be part of the issue with my charging system.

Thanks.
Shawn
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  #27  
Old 03-09-2013, 09:34 PM
Ristow Ristow is offline
 
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you have an SI series alternator,stock application. that is an SI rick posted above.

the resistance wire goes to the 1 terminal,which turns the alternator on. 2 is the sense terminal which will alter voltage.

at this point,i would either get a new alt,or get a regulator for that one.

i have wired several SI's up with no resistors. my J20 have a Delco SI in it,wired up according to Delco specs,which has no mention of resistors.
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Ristows right.................again,




Quote:
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... like the little 'you know what's' that you are.




Quote:
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I LOVE how Ristow has stolen my comment about him ... "Quoted" it ... and made himself famous for being an ***hole to people. Hahahahahahahahahha!


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  #28  
Old 03-09-2013, 09:50 PM
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serehill serehill is offline
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it's possible

In his Video it looks bigger.

I agree with th eNo resisters. even though they are called for & it seems rto work with them it's a waste of time. 9 volts is still to low. consenses is the alternator though. Still not all in on that one.
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80 Cherokee
360 ci 727 with
Comp cams 270 h
NP208
Edlebrock performer intake
Holley 4180
Msd total multi spark.
4" rusty's springs
Member, FSJ Prissy Restoration Association

If you can't make it better why waste your time. No use repeating the orignal mistakes. I'm to old to push it that's why.
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  #29  
Old 03-09-2013, 09:56 PM
Ristow Ristow is offline
 
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not the size rick,look at the case. CS series have a wider black winding case sandwiched between the case halves. SI's do not,the case halves almost touch.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hankrod
Ristows right.................again,




Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasts79Chief
... like the little 'you know what's' that you are.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasts79Chief
I LOVE how Ristow has stolen my comment about him ... "Quoted" it ... and made himself famous for being an ***hole to people. Hahahahahahahahahha!


→ Where the kids hang out...

fsjbuilder.org come for the mindless chat,stay for the hand drawn emoticons.

It's like you're unraveling a big cable-knit sweater that someone keeps knitting...and knitting...and knitting...and knitting...
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  #30  
Old 03-09-2013, 10:09 PM
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serehill serehill is offline
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OH

Went back & checked the video point taken It's not a 144.
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80 Cherokee
360 ci 727 with
Comp cams 270 h
NP208
Edlebrock performer intake
Holley 4180
Msd total multi spark.
4" rusty's springs
Member, FSJ Prissy Restoration Association

If you can't make it better why waste your time. No use repeating the orignal mistakes. I'm to old to push it that's why.

Last edited by serehill : 03-11-2013 at 11:32 AM.
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  #31  
Old 03-11-2013, 10:44 AM
ShawnQ ShawnQ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ristow
you have an SI series alternator,stock application. that is an SI rick posted above.

the resistance wire goes to the 1 terminal,which turns the alternator on. 2 is the sense terminal which will alter voltage.

at this point,i would either get a new alt,or get a regulator for that one.

i have wired several SI's up with no resistors. my J20 have a Delco SI in it,wired up according to Delco specs,which has no mention of resistors.

So,

If the small brown resistance wire was broken, everything shpildve worked fine?

I was checking resistance on it today. Removed plug from alt and the brown wire fell off in my hand.

I'm wondering if I should still remove alt and have it tested?
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  #32  
Old 03-11-2013, 10:54 AM
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tgreese tgreese is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaber
I have been through many 70's and 80's wire harnesses, both FSJ and CJ and can attest to the "duct tape" is factory.

Yep. Not sure why, but they used duct tape. If you can somehow tape it and slide a piece of heat shrink over it, that would be better than the factory tape. I would snip out the factory splice completely and redo it, getting rid of the resistance wires.

The resistance wire is hard to work with. I would remove it entirely and use a diode in series with the alternator wire, and a regular ballast resistor. The diode generates almost no heat, cheap, and easy to solder-in. Then solder to your factory splice, and tape it up good.

However, I don't see how that wire can be your problem. That wire is only needed to energize the alternator field at startup. One the alternator is running, it provides its own field power. The voltage set point is determined by comparison of the voltage at terminal 2 with zener diode voltage D1 (see Ristow's service bulletin). No current flows through terminal 1 once the alternator is running - that's why the indicator light (if present) is dark.
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Last edited by tgreese : 03-11-2013 at 11:10 AM.
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  #33  
Old 03-11-2013, 11:17 AM
ShawnQ ShawnQ is offline
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Thanks guys.

Makes sense to me. I just removed the alt and will be having it tested shortly. I'll let you all know the outcome.

Shawn
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You can view my Build/Work In Progress thread by clicking HERE!
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  #34  
Old 03-11-2013, 11:17 AM
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serehill serehill is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnQ
So,

If the small brown resistance wire was broken, everything shpildve worked fine?

I was checking resistance on it today. Removed plug from alt and the brown wire fell off in my hand.

I'm wondering if I should still remove alt and have it tested?


You could have it tested just to remove all doubt & repair the wires. That wire can be all there is to it. The Mcparts stores will test your alterator for free. sometimes it worth the cost of the test they are not always right. You do not have to use resistance wire replace it all.

Might as well do something the broken wire is key though/ I would fox the wire then test but do allget r dun get r finished.
__________________

80 Cherokee
360 ci 727 with
Comp cams 270 h
NP208
Edlebrock performer intake
Holley 4180
Msd total multi spark.
4" rusty's springs
Member, FSJ Prissy Restoration Association

If you can't make it better why waste your time. No use repeating the orignal mistakes. I'm to old to push it that's why.

Last edited by serehill : 03-11-2013 at 11:29 AM.
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  #35  
Old 03-11-2013, 11:50 AM
Ristow Ristow is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnQ
So,

If the small brown resistance wire was broken, everything shpildve worked fine?

I was checking resistance on it today. Removed plug from alt and the brown wire fell off in my hand.

I'm wondering if I should still remove alt and have it tested?

not entirely. it would have not made power until the revs came up a good bit,at which point the alt would have "excited" itself,generating it's own field. that wire is there to instantly generate the field on starup. fix it's connections.

in this mode,it still would have maintained proper voltage however. once the field is generated,no more input is required at that terminal. the alternator in fact puts power back out of that terminal-the same amount as the BAT terminal that provides the power to the vehicle-hence the backfeeding possibility.

overcharging is a rare malfunction,usually it's undercharging.

i've had undercharging alts test ok on the machine at the parts store,even tho they were bad. i would think an overcharge will be more obvious.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hankrod
Ristows right.................again,




Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasts79Chief
... like the little 'you know what's' that you are.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasts79Chief
I LOVE how Ristow has stolen my comment about him ... "Quoted" it ... and made himself famous for being an ***hole to people. Hahahahahahahahahha!


→ Where the kids hang out...

fsjbuilder.org come for the mindless chat,stay for the hand drawn emoticons.

It's like you're unraveling a big cable-knit sweater that someone keeps knitting...and knitting...and knitting...and knitting...
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  #36  
Old 03-14-2013, 12:20 AM
ShawnQ ShawnQ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ristow
not entirely. it would have not made power until the revs came up a good bit,at which point the alt would have "excited" itself,generating it's own field. that wire is there to instantly generate the field on starup. fix it's connections.

in this mode,it still would have maintained proper voltage however. once the field is generated,no more input is required at that terminal. the alternator in fact puts power back out of that terminal-the same amount as the BAT terminal that provides the power to the vehicle-hence the backfeeding possibility.

overcharging is a rare malfunction,usually it's undercharging.

i've had undercharging alts test ok on the machine at the parts store,even tho they were bad. i would think an overcharge will be more obvious.

So I took it off and had it tested. The first test it tested fine, just under the 'max' limit for voltage at 15.97 (16 was their machine's max).

The next test it spun up and immediately failed all tests. Report showed 27 volts.

Ran another, 27 volts again, all failed.

And another, 27 volts again, all failed.

Double checked all of the testing equipment connections, ran again, 15.9V..

Ran one more time, 27 volts again.

I'm not 100% sure how the alts work (I'd have to re-read the links above), but I think it is going 'full open' possibly due to a short somewhere in the case. The alt tester didn't allow it to run long once it 'failed' so I don't know if the alternator was making the same whining noise when it failed.

I do know that the bearings sounded pretty bad...so I replaced it regardless.

Unfortunately, I had to go back with a 78Amp for the time being as the only 94Amp they had was no good. It was a new (rebuild) and the pulley shaft threads were completely stripped out. Go figure.

I may go back and get a 94 when they get another one in, as it will be a while before I get a chance to put it all back together. I figured once I was into it this far I may as well repair my intake and timing cover leaks. I'm trying to talk myself OUT of pulling the heads and having them rebuilt while I'm this far in . It ran fine, didn't smoke, and had plenty of power so I think I'll leave them on there for the time being. But, it's just my luck that once I get the intake and front cover/water pump back on, I'll have something go wrong and need to pull the stuff right back off.

Thanks for the input guys. I'll keep you all posted when I get it back together.

Shawn
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  #37  
Old 03-14-2013, 07:40 AM
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serehill serehill is offline
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Yeah that sounds like the way to go with the alternaor.

I wouldn't pull the heads. That usually snowballs. I understand murphy. If it's running good & you're not going all the way through the engine then leave it alone.

Do you have any other power add ons Huge steering winch?
you chould be fine with this alternator if you're stock.
__________________

80 Cherokee
360 ci 727 with
Comp cams 270 h
NP208
Edlebrock performer intake
Holley 4180
Msd total multi spark.
4" rusty's springs
Member, FSJ Prissy Restoration Association

If you can't make it better why waste your time. No use repeating the orignal mistakes. I'm to old to push it that's why.
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  #38  
Old 03-14-2013, 07:50 AM
ShawnQ ShawnQ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serehill
I wouldn't pull the heads. That usually snowballs. I understand murphy. If it's running good & you're not going all the way through the engine then leave it alone.

Do you have any other power add ons Huge steering winch?
you chould be fine with this alternator if you're stock.

I don't have any large electrical loads...just the usual a/c and power options that came on most grand wagoneers. I do intend to run a 4-headlight setup with my Rhino conversion.

Any input on cleaning the backside of the valves without pulling them? The carbon is pretty thick on them. The stems are clean though.

Thanks
Shawn
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  #39  
Old 03-14-2013, 08:22 AM
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serehill serehill is offline
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I would bet it's not as bad as you think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnQ
I don't have any large electrical loads...just the usual a/c and power options that came on most grand wagoneers. I do intend to run a 4-headlight setup with my Rhino conversion.

Any input on cleaning the backside of the valves without pulling them? The carbon is pretty thick on them. The stems are clean though.

Thanks
Shawn

Make sure it isn't rich. Then put some good gas in it & do a highway road trip. That will clean it. I still don't think you have an issue unless you're dumping fuel & causing the carbon. Or the obvious if carbon is from oil burn then a rebuild is in order.

Fix the primary problem ( What makes the carbon) & the secondary problem (carbon) will take care of itself
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80 Cherokee
360 ci 727 with
Comp cams 270 h
NP208
Edlebrock performer intake
Holley 4180
Msd total multi spark.
4" rusty's springs
Member, FSJ Prissy Restoration Association

If you can't make it better why waste your time. No use repeating the orignal mistakes. I'm to old to push it that's why.
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  #40  
Old 03-15-2013, 01:01 PM
Joe Guilbeau Joe Guilbeau is offline
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Your alternator needs to be replaced, specifically the regulator has intermittent operation and is failing to regulate the voltage output.

In addition, the lousy wiring has contributed to the regulator failing.

Replace it with a lifetime warrantied CS-130 and don't look back. There are many threads on how to accomplish that.

For your reference, I am adding some basic information on how a layman can troubleshoot alternator problems with a voltmeter along with a link to an article that I wrote up for the International Full Size Jeep collective.

I really need to edit that old article and bring it up to date.

http://oljeep.com/AltTheory17/AlternatorTheoryVersion17R1.htm#Testing_Alternator s

Here is some info on the CS-130's from part houses...
http://oljeep.com/AltTheory17/Altern..._alt ernators

I will look under my hood to get the Gates belts that work with my CS-130 without any modifications to the standard mounting brackets that I have on my 1983 Cherokee Laredo.

Those part numbers might have changed... as this article is about 10 years old now.
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