International Full Size Jeep Association
Home Forums Reader's Rigs Tech Library Trail Stories FSJ-List
International Full Size Jeep Association  

Go Back   International Full Size Jeep Association > Tire Kickin' > General Chit-Chat

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #21  
Old 09-03-2021, 11:16 AM
MysticRob MysticRob is offline
327 Rambler
 
Join Date: Nov 26, 2019
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 652
Quote:
Originally Posted by rang-a-stang
...If the vaccine is safe and does what it is supposed to do, then those of us who choose not to take it are the ones accepting the risk. To say that I MUST take the vaccine to prevent you from getting sick is self defeating because either we both don't have the vaccine and me getting you sick is because you did not get the vaccine either, or you did get the the vaccine and whether I have the vaccine or not is irrelevant to you...

Exactly why I won't be getting it, unless my new Fed job requires it (it doesn't... yet). I figure I'm already ahead of the curve, having had whatever damn variations were floating around. Figure I'll get the newest version too at some point since the govt wants to keep it trickling amongst the population instead of just letting it run its course.
__________________
--Rob--
1988 Jeep Grand Wagoneer / Baltic Blue & Tan
2008 BMW 535xi Wagon / Deep Sea Blue & Tan

My build thread:
https://ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=189245
My Howell TBI Install How-To:
https://ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=189877
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 09-03-2021, 12:21 PM
oregonphil oregonphil is offline
232 I6
 
Join Date: Oct 17, 2020
Location: Klamath Falls, Oregon
Posts: 116
I think it's good to see we are serious about these subjects and how they affects our lives. The debates on these subjects are very important and personal.
Almost as heated as the debate over ported vs manifold vacuum.
__________________
OregonPhil

77 SJ 401
72 Commando 304
07 Toyota Sienna
76 HD FLH
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 09-03-2021, 12:33 PM
rang-a-stang's Avatar
rang-a-stang rang-a-stang is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Oct 31, 2016
Location: Camarillo, CA
Posts: 4,367
Quote:
Originally Posted by oregonphil
I think it's good to see we are serious about these subjects and how they affects our lives. The debates on these subjects are very important and personal.
Almost as heated as the debate over ported vs manifold vacuum.
AMEN!!! Preach it!!!
__________________
79 Cherokee Chief (passed CA smog check Sept 2020)
(Cherokee Build Thread)
11 Nissan Pathfinder Silver Edition 4x4
09 Mazdaspeed3 Grand Touring
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 10-30-2021, 12:29 PM
elskeptico's Avatar
elskeptico elskeptico is offline
350 Buick
 
Join Date: Sep 03, 2003
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 805
I'm more pessimistic than Phil, I don't think online discussions move the needle much at all.

I will say I think this demonstrates two vastly different (and extremely entrenched) world views: rugged individualist vs. collectivist. And for the rugged individualists, I have this question: where do you go when you get so sick you can hardly breathe?

It's a rhetorical question, of course, most people go to the hospital, many of which lately are overcrowded with COVID patients (whether you believe it or not). My body, my choice, until you (or a loved one) can't get a ventilator you need to live. I wonder then if the tune changes to "why can't the public health system save me?"

The legality and limits of vaccine mandates were decided by the Supreme Court over 100 years ago. We call that "settled law."
__________________
1979 Cherokee Chief S, 360, TFI, Part-time conversion, rust

If you go lookin' for rust, you'll find it.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 10-30-2021, 04:53 PM
goldhammer's Avatar
goldhammer goldhammer is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 08, 2004
Location: Willamette Valley, OR
Posts: 5,118
On the 4th of August, my implanted defibulator went off 5 times in 3 hours, the last 3 in the ER. No cardio ICU beds in the state, CA and WA were not accepting any transfers at all. They finally found 2 hospitals with beds available. One in ID, the other in MN. I'm 68, and have 25% ejection fraction. That is volume of blood moved out of the ventricle on each heartbeat. Normal is 65-70%.

Ended up with being lifeflighted to Boise.
Don't know what the final out of pocket is going to be, already paid $1100, trying to get that back from VA, and see if they cover the $1500 that Medicare didn't. VA already said not covering $3400 from what looks like the Boise ambulance from airport to hospital. ( 7 miles mileage charge) No idea if I'm getting a bill for the flight or how much if I get one. Haven't seen one from the local ambulance yet either, but the last one for the same distance was $2500 in April of 2020.

And an excellent cardio team less than 25 miles from me.... COVID had them overflowing and still do.

As far as I'm concerned, the non-vacers should not get admitted to any medical center. If you don't get it, (covid) absolutely great. You made the choice, live or die with it on your own. I've been hibernating alone since my part-time employer made a 900 mile round trip to get me when Boise turned me loose. With my health, a case of covid would do me in. Yeah, got my second stick in May, and looking at the booster sometime in Nov/Dec. Don't need to chance being a "breakthrough" victim. We have an 80% vaccination rate in the state, and around 90% of hospitalizations are unvaccinated. While the vaccine may not be the perfect cure, (and they can't be), it shows that at least it slows downs the rate of serious cases that need hospitalization.
__________________
Art
ASE Master Collision Tech
"Beast" - 81 "S" W/T, 85-360, T-18, Lock-rite,wag alloys, 31-10.50 Pro Comp MT's, Warn 8274 in a fabbed bumper/deer strainer(tested and approved)

88 XJ, 3" lift, 31-10.50's, custom bumpers and winch/tow bar mounts, Warn 9500HS, custom sliders/steps, camo paint, & headliner

Member: FSJ Prissy Restoration Assoc.

Last edited by goldhammer : 11-12-2021 at 10:35 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 11-01-2021, 03:39 AM
wincher's Avatar
wincher wincher is offline
258 I6
 
Join Date: Dec 08, 2019
Location: Bavarian Forest
Posts: 313
i have my 2 vaccinations since spring

the gouvernment has lowered the requirements in summer.
we had low infection rate and gouvernment votes in september.


the last week we have a rapidly rise of infections.. up to 507 for 100000 (392 absolut) residents in our district in eastern baveria


This i called inzidenz is and was the #1 identification number for measures like lockdown, wearing masks and what kind of it, , closed restaurants..



now i am positive since last sunday and have to go in isolation at home for 2 weeks. not funny, but hey. i am at home and can work from home.

have a mild illness for 3 days, now i am mostly fine. (but no taste and smell )



In germany we have now a second identification number for the covid valuation



the number of free intensive beds in hospitals. with artifical respiration/Ventilation..
This is to controll if the covid infects are only like a litte cough and the good old influenza or if our hospitals get stressed.



my district has 13 intensive beds.
0 free, all occupied!
2 of them are covid patients, and both the respiration
since 1. juli 40 coved patients in the hospital, only 5 from them with vaccianations



the neighbour district has this situation
17 intensive beds.
0 free
5 from 17 are covid patients, 3 of them with respiration.


Since today we have stricter rules again.
for clubs now 2G istead of 3G or 3G+
(some soccer clubs allow only 2G for visiting the games too!)
G-rules mean:
1. G: Genesen: recover from Coid
2. G Geimpft: vaccination
3. G Getestet: tested for covid infection.
You have to pay the test for your own, if you are older than 12 years, not otherwise ill, pregnant aso


The pressure for the non vaccinated person rises !
__________________
78 chief 360amc
02 wj 4.7HO Overland
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 11-01-2021, 09:00 AM
tgreese's Avatar
tgreese tgreese is offline
 
Join Date: May 29, 2003
Location: Medford MA USA
Posts: 11,513
People make choices wrt personal risk every day. Getting the vax or not is one of those choices. You can disagree about the wisdom of that choice, or not.

I work at a hospital. I was offered the vax early - first dose of Moderna in January, second early in February. Since I sometimes meet patients in the course of my work, I could have received it maybe 6-8 weeks earlier.

My choice, since in the demographic most at risk. Since then the legal status of the vax (provisional FDA approval?) has changed, and the hospital requires vaccination for work. Not an issue for me, since previously I sought it for myself.

Dunno, the hospital also requires an annual flu vaccine, since maybe two years ago? Previously you got a label on your ID badge that allowed entry to patient areas, but no mandate. Something about the law changed two years ago ... not sure what.

I think the employers are on solid legal ground, requiring vaccination. IMO public agencies are not, but I am not a constitutional lawyer.

However, doctors have always treated patients regardless of how their injuries or afflictions were acquired. They can't deny treatment to a burglar who gets shot while committing the crime. They can't deny treatment to someone who tries to kill themselves with pills - even though that's contrary to their clear intent. If you wish to change this, be careful what you wish for.

My opinion - much of the controversy comes from the invisible foot of government mandate. People in general will act in their own self-interest, and will get vaccinated if the reason for such is clear. Many people become bloody-minded (as my Granddad would say) when you compel them to choose, and application of more force is unlikely to be more convincing.
__________________
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination ATs, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
ECO Green: '15 FCA Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 11-01-2021, 09:08 AM
tgreese's Avatar
tgreese tgreese is offline
 
Join Date: May 29, 2003
Location: Medford MA USA
Posts: 11,513
Quote:
Originally Posted by elskeptico
I'm more pessimistic than Phil, I don't think online discussions move the needle much at all. ...
I think this is correct. Spend some time on Twitter if you are not convinced. Also, most people get their opinions from Facebook and Twitter, which specifically curates consensus views with theirs. The legacy press has adopted this model, and the diversity of opinion via those channels has similarly decreased. If you want to form your own opinion, I suggest you look for independent thinkers on secondary channels like Substack (just an example - not up to me to curate your search for independent thought).
__________________
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination ATs, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
ECO Green: '15 FCA Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 11-01-2021, 12:24 PM
elskeptico's Avatar
elskeptico elskeptico is offline
350 Buick
 
Join Date: Sep 03, 2003
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 805
Quote:
most people get their opinions from Facebook and Twitter, which specifically curates consensus views with theirs

Isn't it funny and tragic that the promise and potential of "the internet" being an enriching source of instant-access information devolved into the cesspool that is now Twitter/Facebook/Tiktok/Instagram? It's absolutely just a toxic echo chamber.
__________________
1979 Cherokee Chief S, 360, TFI, Part-time conversion, rust

If you go lookin' for rust, you'll find it.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 11-01-2021, 02:16 PM
rang-a-stang's Avatar
rang-a-stang rang-a-stang is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Oct 31, 2016
Location: Camarillo, CA
Posts: 4,367
I hear you guys. It is so hard to have a discussion with folks these days without people getting all bent out of shape. The news media is completely useless these days, too. If anything, they make things worse.

As far as beds go: HHS does track bed usage and posts it for us to see.
HHS Bed utilization website
During the heavy throws of the Pandemic the numbers were insane. Now, not so much.
Scroll down to "HHS Protect Inpatient Bed Dashboard". Then, select percent so you can compare. You will see many beds are taken but the huge numbers being reported as taken by COVID are not there anymore. Newsmedia will make 2 statements that are not related but make it sound like they are. Looks like this:
"In CA COVID sicknesses are taking up a lot of beds in Hospitals. Almost 80% of beds are full in CA." Both are true statements but they make it sound like 80% of Hospital beds are full of COVID patients when really it's less than 7%.

Nationally, 6.37% of beds taken with COVID folks. It's also interesting to compare states. CA with some of the most restrictive COVID rules and tons of Vax mandates has a 6.6% bed usage but FL with anti-mandate laws in effect only has 3.5%. OR has 9.2% right now and very strict mandates vs. TX with anti-mandates is 6.2%. These numbers are relatively high but not "Overcrowding" by any measure.

The idea that we should deny someone a hospital bed because they are not jabbed has two problems:
1) if we did that, than shouldn't we also deny cancer treatments to nicotine users? medical treatment to type 2 diabetics who refuse to monitor/modify their eating habits? How about drug Overdoses? alcohol users with liver problems? What is an ambulance shows up to a car wreck and the driver smells of alcohol, should they step back and watch him die? what if they had one beer, 5 minutes before the wreck? Where do you draw the line?
2) You are assuming that jabbed folks are much less susceptible to needing hospitals beds 100% of the time. If you read the reports (not the news articles about the actual reports) coming out of Israel and Seychelles (the most stuck countries in the world) vs. the ones out of India (treats with other meds and does not do much jabbing) you will see the longer we study these shots, the more we find how ineffective they are and how the other meds ARE effective, especially against Delta. Yet our newsmedia continues to blame those who are not stuck and repeat the same talking points week after week; they (newsmedia) are making things worse.

I also find it frustrating how much our media and government are ignoring natural immunity. Almost every other county in the world acknowledges someone that has recovered from COVID is just as protected, or more protected for longer than someone that has been V-shot only. Again, this includes Israel and Seychelles that are super vaxed.

Why I am so passionate about this? Because I am probably going to lose my job over this. I work for the Navy (6 years active and 20 years in my current job). According the Navy (The Navy's COVID Website)
to date, the "Navy Family" has lost 171 folks to COVID. Keep in mind the "Navy Family" is active duty (346,200), Reservists (57,690), Dependent's (estimated around 400,000), Civil service (like me, estimated around 250,000), and contractors (I cannot find a number so lets guess ~100,000). So for approximately 1,153,890 people, we lost about 87/year. For comparison, on average more sailors die in motorcycle accidents every year than from COVID. Yet we are about to fire thousands of them for not taking a shot that does not always protect them from the disease it is meant to and has caused long term health effects. That sounds like throwing away a baby with some dirty bath water or cutting your nose, eyes, and mouth off to spite your face.

I know people who have lost loved ones to this disease, including folks on this forum. I am not downplaying the disease. I am also am not anti-shot; I am anti-mandate. I just think it is completely wrong to force people to get a shot they don't want.

It is not settled law (that is another news media talking point that is not completely true but keeps getting repeated). You are thinking of Jacobson vs. Massachusetts in 1905. In that case, Jacobson said his religious rights were being infringed by the smallpox vax and refused to get the shot. Massachusetts fined him and he refused to pay it so off to court they went. The supreme court sided with the state and said he had to pay the $5 fine. BUT he never had to get the shot because there was no provision for actually forcing vaccination on any person! If Uncle Sam wants to fine me the equivalent fine (~$150 in today dollars), I will pay the fine and assume the risk.
__________________
79 Cherokee Chief (passed CA smog check Sept 2020)
(Cherokee Build Thread)
11 Nissan Pathfinder Silver Edition 4x4
09 Mazdaspeed3 Grand Touring
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 11-02-2021, 10:33 AM
elskeptico's Avatar
elskeptico elskeptico is offline
350 Buick
 
Join Date: Sep 03, 2003
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 805
Quote:
Originally Posted by rang-a-stang
I am not downplaying the disease.

I don't know that it matters, but let's be fair here, Marc, you have downplayed it in this very post and elsewhere in this thread. And from your perspective I suppose it is valid to do so, that you don't consider it an emergency. But even after a member here talked about his own first-hand account with hospital over-crowding, you're still focused on how the media has over-hyped that issue, so I don't know what will convince you of the urgency.

To my mind, what the Jacobson decision settled is that personal liberty is not absolute, that there can be consequences for denying a vaccine in some cases, and it didn't limit the consequences to a five-buck fine. I get that you disagree with the consequences, but that's someone else's call (Navy brass?) and whether or not you or anyone else has the right to deny the shot and keep their job would be up to a court to decide.

Justice Harlan in Jacobson:
“But the liberty secured by the Constitution of the United States to every person within its jurisdiction does not import an absolute right in each person to be, at all times and in all circumstances, wholly freed from restraint. There are manifold restraints to which every person is necessarily subject for the common good.”
__________________
1979 Cherokee Chief S, 360, TFI, Part-time conversion, rust

If you go lookin' for rust, you'll find it.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 11-09-2021, 04:32 AM
sickcat sickcat is offline
232 I6
 
Join Date: Jan 11, 2002
Location: LA
Posts: 34
Doubt there is many still here from the OLD days so I may be new to most of you.

A big draw for many at IFSJA is the community that comes out of their passion for FSJs. Always a place where respect for others in the brotherhood was high. With all the polarization over the subject of this thread that is going round nowadays it was great to see that even with all the strong feelings and opinions that the respect I always saw in this community still exists.

I thank you all.

Kerry
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 11-09-2021, 06:22 PM
SC/397's Avatar
SC/397 SC/397 is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Feb 01, 2010
Location: Michigan
Posts: 974
Long but a good watch.
https://www.ute.com/video/AWrxbWYaarw1/
https://www.ute.com/video/AWrxbWYaarw1/
Censored. And I am not surprised.
https://www.ute.com/video/AWrxbWYaarw1/
__________________
The Squeaky Wheel gets replaced in my world

Last edited by SC/397 : 11-09-2021 at 06:27 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 11-10-2021, 04:11 PM
rang-a-stang's Avatar
rang-a-stang rang-a-stang is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Oct 31, 2016
Location: Camarillo, CA
Posts: 4,367
Quote:
Originally Posted by elskeptico
I don't know that it matters, but let's be fair here, Marc, you have downplayed it in this very post and elsewhere in this thread. And from your perspective I suppose it is valid to do so, that you don't consider it an emergency. But even after a member here talked about his own first-hand account with hospital over-crowding, you're still focused on how the media has over-hyped that issue, so I don't know what will convince you of the urgency.
...
That's true and you are right. With that, I owe Mr. Goldhammer an apology for being a jerk.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elskeptico
...

To my mind, what the Jacobson decision settled is that personal liberty is not absolute, that there can be consequences for denying a vaccine in some cases, and it didn't limit the consequences to a five-buck fine. I get that you disagree with the consequences, but that's someone else's call (Navy brass?) and whether or not you or anyone else has the right to deny the shot and keep their job would be up to a court to decide.

Justice Harlan in Jacobson:
“But the liberty secured by the Constitution of the United States to every person within its jurisdiction does not import an absolute right in each person to be, at all times and in all circumstances, wholly freed from restraint. There are manifold restraints to which every person is necessarily subject for the common good.”
VERY true! This is what one of the lawyers in one of our groups is arguing (I say "our" meaning the group of us holdouts that have hired lawyers, and signed on with other group's lawyers/suits). They (the lawyers) are arguing that the severity of this outbreak is vastly exaggerated when compared to the Jacobsen case and the consequences are also vastly exaggerated. I guess a judge will have to decide.
__________________
79 Cherokee Chief (passed CA smog check Sept 2020)
(Cherokee Build Thread)
11 Nissan Pathfinder Silver Edition 4x4
09 Mazdaspeed3 Grand Touring
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 11-10-2021, 11:32 PM
goldhammer's Avatar
goldhammer goldhammer is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 08, 2004
Location: Willamette Valley, OR
Posts: 5,118
Rang....no apology needed, or accepted. We all have our passions, beliefs and opinions I know that and accept it for what it is.
At the end of the day, we have one thing in common, and that's what draws us to this site.

Besides, in my 68+ years, my hide has gotten a little thicker.
__________________
Art
ASE Master Collision Tech
"Beast" - 81 "S" W/T, 85-360, T-18, Lock-rite,wag alloys, 31-10.50 Pro Comp MT's, Warn 8274 in a fabbed bumper/deer strainer(tested and approved)

88 XJ, 3" lift, 31-10.50's, custom bumpers and winch/tow bar mounts, Warn 9500HS, custom sliders/steps, camo paint, & headliner

Member: FSJ Prissy Restoration Assoc.

Last edited by goldhammer : 11-12-2021 at 10:41 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 11-11-2021, 08:46 AM
backroadin''s Avatar
backroadin' backroadin' is offline
350 Buick
 
Join Date: Aug 11, 2004
Location: Vermont
Posts: 1,024
Hasn't 30,000 people on average lost their lives to the influenza virus each year in th US? 30,000 a year for years. And only now we're upset about people not getting a shot? Were all those flu deaths not as impprtant as these covd deaths?
The rate of covid deaths is on par with what the flu death rate has been for a long time....... and we never had any mandates, closures, lockdowns or any of it before. And noone cared. We even battled the Sars virus (whicjh is what covid is basically) almost 20 years ago and got thru it.
I just wonder why all the fuss now?
__________________
"Roads? Where we're going we don't need roads." -- Dr Emmett Brown

"When this baby reaches 88 miles per hour, you're gonna to see some serious sht!"

73 Wagoneer - 4.6L Stroker (yeah baby!!) t176/d300, 3.73's, 33" muds, 4"spring lift, 2" body. Offy dualport w/ Quadrajet, pertronix, flowmaster.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 11-11-2021, 01:45 PM
letank's Avatar
letank letank is offline
AMC 4 OH! 1
 
Join Date: Jun 03, 2002
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 4,024
How many excess death due to covid... the data speak for themselves: looking at the graphs for the last 6 years from 2015.








The real sad story is the political turn of the pandemic... the clash between science and politics/ The politicians trying to cling to power, wealth and benefits coming from the connections of the elected office.

Regardless of the parties we have seen the abuse tied to idiotic construction projects: the bridge to nowhere and for our state the bullet train being done between Fresno and Bakersfield ...
__________________
Michel
74 wag, 349Kmiles on original ticker/trany, except for the rust. Will it make it to the next get together without a rebuilt? Status: needs a new body.
85 Gwag, 226 Kmiles. $250 FSJ test lab since 02, that refuses to give up but still leaks.

See Ouray 2013, Engine bits and Fuel and brake lines, and Body work
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 11-13-2021, 07:35 PM
goldhammer's Avatar
goldhammer goldhammer is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 08, 2004
Location: Willamette Valley, OR
Posts: 5,118
Quote:
Originally Posted by backroadin'
Hasn't 30,000 people on average lost their lives to the influenza virus each year in th US? 30,000 a year for years. And only now we're upset about people not getting a shot? Were all those flu deaths not as impprtant as these covd deaths?
The rate of covid deaths is on par with what the flu death rate has been for a long time....... and we never had any mandates, closures, lockdowns or any of it before. And noone cared. We even battled the Sars virus (whicjh is what covid is basically) almost 20 years ago and got thru it.
I just wonder why all the fuss now?

When covid was running like wildfire, we were losing that many or more per month, not in a year. Granted,a lot of those had underlying conditions, and covid pushed it over the edge.
In a year and a half or so, we have had well over 500,000 deaths attributed to it, and not only just the elderly. There are plenty of the 20-40 year age group going down as well, especially with Delta as the primary strain right now. It is even taking young kids, granted not as many as other age groups.
__________________
Art
ASE Master Collision Tech
"Beast" - 81 "S" W/T, 85-360, T-18, Lock-rite,wag alloys, 31-10.50 Pro Comp MT's, Warn 8274 in a fabbed bumper/deer strainer(tested and approved)

88 XJ, 3" lift, 31-10.50's, custom bumpers and winch/tow bar mounts, Warn 9500HS, custom sliders/steps, camo paint, & headliner

Member: FSJ Prissy Restoration Assoc.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:56 PM.


Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
corner corner