International Full Size Jeep Association
Home Forums Reader's Rigs Tech Library Trail Stories FSJ-List
International Full Size Jeep Association  

Go Back   International Full Size Jeep Association > Tire Kickin' > General FSJ Tech

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-23-2018, 04:17 PM
rang-a-stang's Avatar
rang-a-stang rang-a-stang is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Oct 31, 2016
Location: Camarillo, CA
Posts: 4,367
What is your experience with AMC V8 Decks/lines

I just got off the phone with the shop I plan to use for my 401 build machine work this summer. This shop has a fantastic reputation around SoCal for their work and I have read several article written by them or by magazines that have used them for their work. I have total confidence in their work and trust their experience.

Quick definition of my planned build: 401, 030 over, 9.2:1CR, RV cam, stock heads, Edelbrock intake, TBI w/454 Throttle body, headers, must be smoggable (EGR). I want smooth idle, smooth running, and 100K worth of mileage (engine longevity and drivability is more important than HP or Torque).

I knew machine work was going to be expensive and budgeted rightfully so, but he brought up some points I need to consider that would bring me over budget.
1) Square decking the block: He said generally speaking, American built engines of the 60's-70's were built on blocks that could be pretty "off" as far as the deck surface in relation to the crank center hole plane. He said, if I am going to "blueprint it" I should absolutely square deck it. I said I don't ever want to pull my engine again after this so I want to do it right, but I also don't want to spend another $200 on a service I may not need. He countered saying new gaskets need an almost perfect surface and since I am bringing my compression ratio up, I may want to consider it.
2) Line honing the block: basically the same as above but this time, for the mains. He said I may not need it but to be ready in case I do.
3) Rebuilding/resizing stock 401 rods: this is a $200 service that I am hoping to avoid. I know 401s come with factory forged rods and I am banking on my rods being in good shape when they come out. I don't plan on spinning this thing past 6K RPM and don't have any rod knocks right now. I am replacing my pistons/pins but I am hoping to just clean my rods with some cleaner in my garage, and throw them on my new pistons after balancing. What is your all experience here? Should I bank on having them re-sized/rebuilt/peened?
__________________
79 Cherokee Chief (passed CA smog check Sept 2020)
(Cherokee Build Thread)
11 Nissan Pathfinder Silver Edition 4x4
09 Mazdaspeed3 Grand Touring
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-23-2018, 04:27 PM
babywag's Avatar
babywag babywag is offline
out of order
 
Join Date: Jun 08, 2005
Location: Land of froot loops and cukcoo-nuts, CA
Posts: 9,975
mandatory sonic check for .030, good way create an overheater if you don’t.
I would not bore it unless absolutely necessary.
While not common sometimes a hone is all that’s needed.

remember what I said about blinders before?
if you look it’s gonna need xyz.
but many times you can get by w/o xyz.

why again are you doing this?
poor compression?
leakdown test results?
or just that you’ve talked yourself into it?

you go down the path the shop leads you you’re looking @ probably $1800-$2k in machine work. Plus all new parts, gonna be $2500-$3500 by time your done easy.
__________________
Tony
88 GW, 67 J3000, 07 Magnum SRT8
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-23-2018, 04:50 PM
Ristow Ristow is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 20, 2006
Location: The Great Googley Moogley Midwest.
Posts: 17,275
resize the rods. period.

the block work can be put off. i'd line hone before i decked it.

i'd go as little oversize as possible on the bores.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hankrod
Ristows right.................again,




Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasts79Chief
... like the little 'you know what's' that you are.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasts79Chief
I LOVE how Ristow has stolen my comment about him ... "Quoted" it ... and made himself famous for being an ***hole to people. Hahahahahahahahahha!


→ Where the kids hang out...

fsjbuilder.org come for the mindless chat,stay for the hand drawn emoticons.

It's like you're unraveling a big cable-knit sweater that someone keeps knitting...and knitting...and knitting...and knitting...
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-23-2018, 04:50 PM
440sixpack 440sixpack is offline
327 Rambler
 
Join Date: Jul 21, 2016
Location: oregon
Posts: 612
Good machine shops always want to do the full meal deal. on a performance build it's required for what you want to do some of it is optional.

Agree that everything starts with a sonic check.

If your deck looks good it's good enough.

Align honing may be required, what they told you makes sense.

I wouldn't consider using the rods without doing everything you listed. yes they're good factory rods but one rod failing can be the end of your entire engine. cheap insurance.

You didn't say anything about the heads. that's a big part of your shop bill.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-23-2018, 04:51 PM
rang-a-stang's Avatar
rang-a-stang rang-a-stang is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Oct 31, 2016
Location: Camarillo, CA
Posts: 4,367
Quote:
Originally Posted by babywag
remember what I said about blinders before?
if you look it’s gonna need xyz.
but many times you can get by w/o xyz.

why again are you doing this?
poor compression?
leakdown test results?
or just that you’ve talked yourself into it?

you go down the path the shop leads you you’re looking @ probably $1800-$2k in machine work. Plus all new parts, gonna be $2500-$3500 by time your done easy.
Blinders: Yep! that's why I'm calling around. trying to peel them off. You're spot on. Right now I am looking at ~$920 for block tanked, peened, Freeze plugs installed, and fluxed, Cam bearings installed, polished crank, and balanced rotating assembly. I had budgeted $1000 for machine work so I am in the ball park. It's those other services that will set me over.

I'm doing this due to low oil pressure (Mechanical oil pressure gauge shows well under 10 at hot idle and about 25 at about 1600RPM with fresh 20W-50), it needs new bearings (my mains are showing copper), 1 cylinder compression is slightly low. I planned on installing cam, bearings, and intake with EFI this summer already anyway, this was the next logical step.

I expect my bores to be decent but want more compression. I can't find standard bore pistons in a 27CC dish for the compression ratio I want hence boring and new pistons. I expect my crank to be decent and am really hoping to get by with a polish and balancing.
__________________
79 Cherokee Chief (passed CA smog check Sept 2020)
(Cherokee Build Thread)
11 Nissan Pathfinder Silver Edition 4x4
09 Mazdaspeed3 Grand Touring
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-23-2018, 04:57 PM
rang-a-stang's Avatar
rang-a-stang rang-a-stang is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Oct 31, 2016
Location: Camarillo, CA
Posts: 4,367
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ristow
resize the rods. period.
the block work can be put off. i'd line hone before i decked it.
i'd go as little oversize as possible on the bores.
Copy (rods). Sigh.

Rgr. that's what I keep reading. If I could find a standard bore 27cc dished piston (and they measure well) I would not consider boring.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 440sixpack
Good machine shops always want to do the full meal deal. on a performance build it's required for what you want to do some of it is optional.
... I wouldn't consider using the rods without doing everything you listed. yes they're good factory rods but one rod failing can be the end of your entire engine. cheap insurance.
You didn't say anything about the heads. that's a big part of your shop bill.
I hear you! (full meal deal) I shot down about 3 or 4 other services as we talked. These 3 just made me think more.
Second up vote for rod service.
Second down vote for decking.
Heads: My plan is to clean them myself and replace my seals (I have accesss to most of the tools needed to rebuild a head). I am hoping they don't need much work. I am willing to spend more on my short block now so I don't have to pull the engine again later but I can swallow pulling the heads later if I have to.
__________________
79 Cherokee Chief (passed CA smog check Sept 2020)
(Cherokee Build Thread)
11 Nissan Pathfinder Silver Edition 4x4
09 Mazdaspeed3 Grand Touring
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-23-2018, 05:09 PM
Ristow Ristow is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 20, 2006
Location: The Great Googley Moogley Midwest.
Posts: 17,275
Quote:
Originally Posted by rang-a-stang

Heads: My plan is to clean them myself and replace my seals (I have accesss to most of the tools needed to rebuild a head). I am hoping they don't need much work. I am willing to spend more on my short block now so I don't have to pull the engine again later but I can swallow pulling the heads later if I have to.

they will need work. they will need guides and exhaust valves minimum. springs are a gimme.

what you listed above is just a waste of time.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hankrod
Ristows right.................again,




Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasts79Chief
... like the little 'you know what's' that you are.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasts79Chief
I LOVE how Ristow has stolen my comment about him ... "Quoted" it ... and made himself famous for being an ***hole to people. Hahahahahahahahahha!


→ Where the kids hang out...

fsjbuilder.org come for the mindless chat,stay for the hand drawn emoticons.

It's like you're unraveling a big cable-knit sweater that someone keeps knitting...and knitting...and knitting...and knitting...
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-23-2018, 05:33 PM
babywag's Avatar
babywag babywag is offline
out of order
 
Join Date: Jun 08, 2005
Location: Land of froot loops and cukcoo-nuts, CA
Posts: 9,975
listen to mike....you cannot do heads yourself.
you can clean them/measure stuff to see what they need but he’s dead on.
unless the’re fresh you’re gonna need more $
__________________
Tony
88 GW, 67 J3000, 07 Magnum SRT8
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-23-2018, 05:37 PM
babywag's Avatar
babywag babywag is offline
out of order
 
Join Date: Jun 08, 2005
Location: Land of froot loops and cukcoo-nuts, CA
Posts: 9,975
and I still say do oil pump & timing cover now...
then do a leak down test on offending cylinder.
a compression test isn’t end all be all test, just tells you have a problem.
it doesn’t tell you what problem is.

my 130k ‘88 360 went from piss poor hot oil pressure to fantastic OP.
25psi hot 65psi+ cruising just from reworking the pump & cover.
the cover was way outta clearance.
__________________
Tony
88 GW, 67 J3000, 07 Magnum SRT8
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-23-2018, 06:43 PM
440sixpack 440sixpack is offline
327 Rambler
 
Join Date: Jul 21, 2016
Location: oregon
Posts: 612
If you don't need to bore it, which is unlikely , you can talk to Bulltear they'll make you any AMC piston you could dream of just tell them what you want when you're finished. not cheap, but cheaper than boring and buying pistons.

Plan on your heads needing work. $500-$1000 .

$950 for what you listed seems high to me. I get all that as well as the crank ground and block bored for that if I remember right. and they're not a cheap shop by Oregon standards anyway.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-23-2018, 07:31 PM
rang-a-stang's Avatar
rang-a-stang rang-a-stang is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Oct 31, 2016
Location: Camarillo, CA
Posts: 4,367
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ristow
they will need work. they will need guides and exhaust valves minimum. springs are a gimme.
what you listed above is just a waste of time.
Worked on my 5.0HO however, I understand this is not a 5.0HO. I will add head work to my budget and see if I can take a couple extra business trips to make up the cost difference. Sigh....
Quote:
Originally Posted by babywag
listen to mike....you cannot do heads yourself.
you can clean them/measure stuff to see what they need but he’s dead on.
unless the’re fresh you’re gonna need more $

and I still say do oil pump & timing cover now...
then do a leak down test on offending cylinder.
a compression test isn’t end all be all test, just tells you have a problem.
it doesn’t tell you what problem is.

my 130k ‘88 360 went from piss poor hot oil pressure to fantastic OP.
25psi hot 65psi+ cruising just from reworking the pump & cover.
the cover was way outta clearance.
I hear you. Here's my schedule (it's driving alot of my decisions):
Smog is due in early June. My first grandbaby is due in early May so we are doing the baby shower at my house which means the wife OWNS my weekends. I'll be glad to get a Saturday to do my manifolds/cat prior to smog but it's going to mean pissing off the wife to go out in the garage when I should be doing pre-baby shower house work. I do want to do the oil pump ASAP based on your recommendation, but that is #3 on my list after 1) prep for smog and 2) get through smog. As soon as smog is done, I pull my Jeep in the garage, and start on this project. I want plenty of time between smogs to get this done/running correctly. I also don't want it languishing so my planning/budgeting is full force now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 440sixpack
If you don't need to bore it, which is unlikely , you can talk to Bulltear they'll make you any AMC piston you could dream of just tell them what you want when you're finished. not cheap, but cheaper than boring and buying pistons.

Plan on your heads needing work. $500-$1000 .

$950 for what you listed seems high to me. I get all that as well as the crank ground and block bored for that if I remember right. and they're not a cheap shop by Oregon standards anyway.
Wow! Good point! ~$200 bore+~$450 for pistons+~$60 for sonic is a >$700 price tag. If Bulltear (or any other piston maker) can make me a standard bore piston set with 27/28CC for less than $700, I save the integrity of my cylinder walls and still get my CR bump for a similar price!

Copy (high). I think so, too. I think when I get closer to go time, I will talk more with them and see if they can come down. They do alot of super high end stuff and I think they are used to folks with deep pockets. I do not have deep pockets.
__________________
79 Cherokee Chief (passed CA smog check Sept 2020)
(Cherokee Build Thread)
11 Nissan Pathfinder Silver Edition 4x4
09 Mazdaspeed3 Grand Touring
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-23-2018, 10:41 PM
440sixpack 440sixpack is offline
327 Rambler
 
Join Date: Jul 21, 2016
Location: oregon
Posts: 612
I bought a custom set from them a few years ago for a 390 and I don't remember what they cost, but I think it was in that range.

They're forged sets and they absolutely can make you whatever you want. they just need your specs and what you're trying to accomplish.

However I wouldn't bank on getting by without boring unless your luck is a lot better than mine .
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-23-2018, 11:57 PM
rang-a-stang's Avatar
rang-a-stang rang-a-stang is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Oct 31, 2016
Location: Camarillo, CA
Posts: 4,367
Bad news: Bulltear custom Pistons: $790/set.
http://www.bulltear.com/catalog/prod...roducts_id=231

BUT GOOD NEWS (at least for me):
Kieth Black makes a Hypereutectic piston with a 28CC dish and 4.165 bore for less than $600
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/u...view/make/jeep

So to summarize this thread:
1) Plan on having my heads serviced at $500-$1000
2) Skip the square decking
3) skip the line honing
4) Plan on having my rods rebuilt
5) I have options to not bore and will avoid it as best I can but can't make that determination until I measure for taper and inspect the cylinder walls after disassembly.
6) Keep searching for a good machinist that may be cheaper but without compromising quality.
__________________
79 Cherokee Chief (passed CA smog check Sept 2020)
(Cherokee Build Thread)
11 Nissan Pathfinder Silver Edition 4x4
09 Mazdaspeed3 Grand Touring
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-24-2018, 08:42 PM
440sixpack 440sixpack is offline
327 Rambler
 
Join Date: Jul 21, 2016
Location: oregon
Posts: 612
You may have to align hone, see what they say.


Trying to save a buck is fine. just make sure you don't toss away a couple grand because you tried to save a couple hundred.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-24-2018, 09:28 PM
babywag's Avatar
babywag babywag is offline
out of order
 
Join Date: Jun 08, 2005
Location: Land of froot loops and cukcoo-nuts, CA
Posts: 9,975
My rods were only $165 including new ARP bolts.

costs for comparison
http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showp...4&postcount=21

Sadly only a couple shops left around here, used to be a few more. Not exactly happy with this one either having to bring the block back a 2nd time because the screwed up on boring.
__________________
Tony
88 GW, 67 J3000, 07 Magnum SRT8
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 03-29-2018, 10:40 AM
Woodchomper's Avatar
Woodchomper Woodchomper is offline
350 Buick
 
Join Date: Dec 17, 2002
Location: Saint Charles, Missouri
Posts: 923
There are much better pistons than KB for AMC V8s. Send SC/397 a PM and ask him for a quote. For machine shops time is money so they are generally quick to bore out your block to whatever piston size their suppliers have. That means they start out at 0.030 overbore.

Custom pistons are not as expensive as you would think and the benefit is a reduced overbore on your block. Another factor to consider when determining the bore size is the availability of piston rings that match your new size.
__________________
1991 GW 401 /727TF/NP229 /4" Skyjacker /EBL TBI /CS-144
1981 J10 401 /727TF/NP208 /6" Superlift /CS-144
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 03-29-2018, 03:39 PM
rang-a-stang's Avatar
rang-a-stang rang-a-stang is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Oct 31, 2016
Location: Camarillo, CA
Posts: 4,367
Yeah, I know but those KBs seem to be "good enough" for my build and within my budget. Also, there are MANY options for 360, less for 390, and less yet for 401. Found a shop that quoted me $577 Out the door shipped to my door for the KB419 in standard size with a set of premium moly rings.

This may all be a moot point if my cylinders are tapered, already bored, or scratched (I hope they are not).

I will take your advice and PM SC/397 to see what he can come up with. I checked 3 different shops for custom pistons and they all come to $700+.
__________________
79 Cherokee Chief (passed CA smog check Sept 2020)
(Cherokee Build Thread)
11 Nissan Pathfinder Silver Edition 4x4
09 Mazdaspeed3 Grand Touring
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 03-29-2018, 09:28 PM
440sixpack 440sixpack is offline
327 Rambler
 
Join Date: Jul 21, 2016
Location: oregon
Posts: 612
KB's are plenty good unless you're running on the bottle. follow the instructions for the ring gap this is where most pilgrims screw up and then they blame the piston.

They're very popular in Mopar's making 500 Hp.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 03-30-2018, 08:15 AM
Ristow Ristow is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 20, 2006
Location: The Great Googley Moogley Midwest.
Posts: 17,275
are the KB pistons still using a SBC wrist pin,requiring the rods to be bushed?

Quote:
Bad news: Bulltear custom Pistons: $790/set.
http://www.bulltear.com/catalog/prod...roducts_id=231


bulltear cant even ship out cam bearing in less than a month. if you think you're gonna get custom pistons from him before the year 2020 i'll just go ahead and start right now.

go spend some time in the "customer corner " forum in classifieds. it's like bulltear and BJ's are having a contest on who can give the worst customer service and both are winning.

if you want forged go with wiseco. they have a off the shelf forging done for these motors.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hankrod
Ristows right.................again,




Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasts79Chief
... like the little 'you know what's' that you are.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasts79Chief
I LOVE how Ristow has stolen my comment about him ... "Quoted" it ... and made himself famous for being an ***hole to people. Hahahahahahahahahha!


→ Where the kids hang out...

fsjbuilder.org come for the mindless chat,stay for the hand drawn emoticons.

It's like you're unraveling a big cable-knit sweater that someone keeps knitting...and knitting...and knitting...and knitting...

Last edited by Ristow : 03-30-2018 at 08:22 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 03-30-2018, 08:22 AM
Ristow Ristow is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 20, 2006
Location: The Great Googley Moogley Midwest.
Posts: 17,275
looks like the KB uses a stock pin now. but you are gonna have to go either std or .030 over. these blocks don't usually need a .030 cut. and a lot of 401's have overheating issues at .030. AMC said .020 was max over bore.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hankrod
Ristows right.................again,




Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasts79Chief
... like the little 'you know what's' that you are.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasts79Chief
I LOVE how Ristow has stolen my comment about him ... "Quoted" it ... and made himself famous for being an ***hole to people. Hahahahahahahahahha!


→ Where the kids hang out...

fsjbuilder.org come for the mindless chat,stay for the hand drawn emoticons.

It's like you're unraveling a big cable-knit sweater that someone keeps knitting...and knitting...and knitting...and knitting...
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Land Rover Experience namsag General Chit-Chat 8 07-17-2015 08:27 AM
My terrible experience with Burntables and my resolution shiner2001 General FSJ Discussion 1 09-09-2014 08:40 PM
ELocker Reliability? Anyone have experience with these? N2Jeeps Off-Road FSJ Tech 2 01-13-2007 09:04 AM
Electric Fuel Pump Experience Kevin718 General FSJ Tech 11 01-13-2007 08:50 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:47 PM.


Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
corner corner