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Old 12-11-2020, 03:14 PM
MysticRob MysticRob is offline
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Location: Boise, ID
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Overdrive Transmission Options?

Being a fan of originality and believing you can improve upon that which already exists, I've been looking into ways of improving mileage on my stock drivetrain 88 GW.

Obviously fuel injection is a good way to ensure proper operation, but being that I want to continue using the original 360 engine, I know doing a transmission swap is the best way to lower RPMs and save on gas over our 3-speed 727s.

Problem is, there isn't a lot of info I've seen on fitment and retrofitting of more modern overdrive transmissions in our rigs. I know there's a 360 block used in some 1998 Grand Cherokees and Durangos, so will those 4-speed overdrive transmissions work behind our rigs or are the mounting holes different? Or is that a different block (aka Chrysler vs AMC) altogether?

What other four or even five speed tranny is available, what's "easy", and what else would need done to swap?
Can the NP229 I have be reused? Is there a better xfer case option with an overdrive tranny option?

I'm looking for "as plug and play as possible", wouldn't mind going with a resized drive shaft, but don't really want to swap out much else or have things fabricated.

Any good info out there beyond the search function not really showing me much?
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1988 Jeep Grand Wagoneer / Baltic Blue & Tan
2008 BMW 535xi Wagon / Deep Sea Blue & Tan

My build thread:
https://ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=189245
My Howell TBI Install How-To:
https://ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=189877
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Old 12-11-2020, 03:35 PM
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tgreese tgreese is offline
 
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Isn't that the Chrysler LA 360? A '98 ZJ could come with a 318, and the Chryco 360 is an upsized version of that. Different. As I recall, some have used the AW4 from an XJ. The WJ Grand Cherokee used the 42RE, a 4-speed overdrive descendant of the 727, with the 4.0L which should be the same bell pattern as your 360. You'd need to work out a flex plate to fit and balance the 360, and the 42RE is electronically controlled - so you'd need some kind of controller. The 42RE in the WJ does not have a stellar reputation for durability, but apparently they can be built to remedy that.

https://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/aw4/
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Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination ATs, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
ECO Green: '15 FCA Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk

Last edited by tgreese : 12-11-2020 at 03:42 PM.
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  #3  
Old 12-11-2020, 03:50 PM
MysticRob MysticRob is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgreese
Isn't that the Chrysler LA 360? A '98 ZJ could come with a 318, and the Chryco 360 is an upsized version of that. Different. As I recall, some have used the AW4 from an XJ. The WJ Grand Cherokee used the 42RE, a 4-speed overdrive descendant of the 727, with the 4.0L which should be the same bell pattern as your 360. You'd need to work out a flex plate to fit and balance the 360, and the 42RE is electronically controlled - so you'd need some kind of controller. The 42RE in the WJ does not have a stellar reputation for durability, but apparently they can be built to remedy that.

https://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/aw4/

I just know there's a spec'd up ZJ that came with a 360 in 98 (and special awesome hood vent extractors, LOL), but figure it's the mopar unit, and not an AMC.

I've read the A518 / 46RH is a 727 with an overdrive gear on it, and doesn't require a controller, but would require a different length shorter drive shaft.

I did see a couple mentions of the AW4, which apparently works well, but requires some adapters, etc.

I can see why many people just completely swap out the engine and transmission both, doesn't seem like many easy tranny options to improve mileage.
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--Rob--
1988 Jeep Grand Wagoneer / Baltic Blue & Tan
2008 BMW 535xi Wagon / Deep Sea Blue & Tan

My build thread:
https://ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=189245
My Howell TBI Install How-To:
https://ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=189877
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  #4  
Old 12-11-2020, 04:19 PM
J20 project's Avatar
J20 project J20 project is offline
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1998 Grand Cherokees and Durangos, so will those 4-speed overdrive transmissions work behind our rigs or are the mounting holes different? Or is that a different block (aka Chrysler vs AMC) altogether?




Yur kidding right?..you believe a 70 dodge tranny will bolt onto a 360/5.9 AMc?
\\\\


Good luck sir.
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  #5  
Old 12-11-2020, 04:36 PM
MysticRob MysticRob is offline
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Join Date: Nov 26, 2019
Location: Boise, ID
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J20 project
1998 Grand Cherokees and Durangos, so will those 4-speed overdrive transmissions work behind our rigs or are the mounting holes different? Or is that a different block (aka Chrysler vs AMC) altogether?

Yur kidding right?..you believe a 70 dodge tranny will bolt onto a 360/5.9 AMc?
\\\\


Good luck sir.

I don't believe anything, hence the word "will" I used in the form of a question.
I know our GWs came with a 727 transmission, which was a Mopar unit, correct? If that tranny worked behind both the AMC And Mopar engines, would a later model Mopar overdrive unit also work behind our 360s?

EDIT: I found this pdf site that specifically mentions the AMC/Jeep 727 not being interchangeable with Mopar engines, so sounds like the later Mopar overdrive units likely won't work on an AMC 360. Too bad, but will do more research.
https://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledg.../automatic/727
"The reader should be aware that the AMC versions of the 727 transmission will not interchange to Mopar engines. The bolt pattern *looks* quite similar, but is not."
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--Rob--
1988 Jeep Grand Wagoneer / Baltic Blue & Tan
2008 BMW 535xi Wagon / Deep Sea Blue & Tan

My build thread:
https://ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=189245
My Howell TBI Install How-To:
https://ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=189877

Last edited by MysticRob : 12-11-2020 at 10:54 PM.
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  #6  
Old 12-12-2020, 12:21 AM
crazydog's Avatar
crazydog crazydog is offline
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Join Date: Nov 19, 2005
Location: Permian Basin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticRob
Being a fan of originality and believing you can improve upon that which already exists, I've been looking into ways of improving mileage on my stock drivetrain 88 GW.

Obviously fuel injection is a good way to ensure proper operation, but being that I want to continue using the original 360 engine, I know doing a transmission swap is the best way to lower RPMs and save on gas over our 3-speed 727s.

Problem is, there isn't a lot of info I've seen on fitment and retrofitting of more modern overdrive transmissions in our rigs. I know there's a 360 block used in some 1998 Grand Cherokees and Durangos, so will those 4-speed overdrive transmissions work behind our rigs or are the mounting holes different? Or is that a different block (aka Chrysler vs AMC) altogether?

What other four or even five speed tranny is available, what's "easy", and what else would need done to swap?
Can the NP229 I have be reused? Is there a better xfer case option with an overdrive tranny option?

I'm looking for "as plug and play as possible", wouldn't mind going with a resized drive shaft, but don't really want to swap out much else or have things fabricated.

Any good info out there beyond the search function not really showing me much?

As has been said, the 727 used in FSJ's has a specific case to bolt to the AMC block. As does the TH400 used in the 70's.

Here is how @ristow adapted a Mopar OD transmission to an AMC block.

http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=51307

If you want an overdrive automatic transmission you can use adapters from Novax to attach a 700R4 to the AMC block and the stock NP transfer case.

https://www.novak-adapt.com/catalog/...r4-to/kit-137/

https://www.novak-adapt.com/catalog/...mc/kit-437amc/
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  #7  
Old 12-12-2020, 10:06 AM
MysticRob MysticRob is offline
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Join Date: Nov 26, 2019
Location: Boise, ID
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Ah, very bueno post, thank you!
I'd seen mention of Novak in another thread, but had no idea how much stuff they had available. I'll research them and do a cost analysis. Likely will stay with the ancient 727 and NP229 for a while till they need rebuilding/replacing.
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--Rob--
1988 Jeep Grand Wagoneer / Baltic Blue & Tan
2008 BMW 535xi Wagon / Deep Sea Blue & Tan

My build thread:
https://ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=189245
My Howell TBI Install How-To:
https://ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=189877
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  #8  
Old 12-12-2020, 10:41 AM
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SC/397 SC/397 is offline
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Like mentioned above...
A dodge/cryco 360 is NOT an AMC engine no more than a ford 360 is a AMC engine.
Any transmission that will bolt up to the 4L AMC Jeep engine will bolt up to the AMC V8 engines.

The two automatic overdrive choices for direct bolt up to the AMC V8 and go are the Aisin AW4 or the chrysler 500SE.
I am a believer in the AW4. It is the best automatic transmission I have ever ran.
I have one in my Javelin that works great. Other than these two transmissions, you will have to use an adapter kit.


AW4 Aisin Warner Aluminum 4 oil/water 242 (4.0) 1987–2006 Jeep

500SE (42RE) Chrysler Aluminum 4 oil/water 242 (4.0) 1993–2004 Jeep
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  #9  
Old 12-12-2020, 06:42 PM
'89_Wagon '89_Wagon is offline
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Location: New Hampshire
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I have a AMC 360/aw4/np229 setup with 3.31 gears and it works well. Also running a GM style TBI. I have not measured the mpg. I did the swap for similar reasons the OP did it for. One thing I don't like about it is the shifter situation. Unlike GM transmission swaps, there's no off the shelf solution so I just used a u-clamp to hold the shifter linkage together. So far, it's fallen apart once. I'm sure there's a better way though. I have a AW4 swap thread on here if you're interested.

With all that said, I'm pretty sure my engine has piston slap so faced with rebuilding the 360 or going LS, I'm going LS with a GM 4 speed.
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  #10  
Old 12-13-2020, 09:06 AM
tgreese's Avatar
tgreese tgreese is offline
 
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Location: Medford MA USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticRob
...
I've read the A518 / 46RH is a 727 with an overdrive gear on it, and doesn't require a controller, but would require a different length shorter drive shaft.
...
I would expect any of these swaps would need new driveshafts. If not mentioned, it's because it's so obvious. More speeds implies more guts in the case and a longer case. Plus the car companies have no reason to make different transmissions the same length.
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Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination ATs, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
ECO Green: '15 FCA Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk
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  #11  
Old 12-13-2020, 01:33 PM
80Limited 80Limited is offline
232 I6
 
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Location: Twin Cities, MN
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I have done the AW4 it is worth it.
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  #12  
Old 12-13-2020, 04:47 PM
MysticRob MysticRob is offline
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Join Date: Nov 26, 2019
Location: Boise, ID
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 80Limited
I have done the AW4 it is worth it.

It's funny I'd never heard of an AW4 before buying my GW, so imagine my surprise when I discovered it's short for Aisin-Warner, both of which I've heard of separately.

I shall research this some more and see if I can figure out how to economically swap at some point.
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--Rob--
1988 Jeep Grand Wagoneer / Baltic Blue & Tan
2008 BMW 535xi Wagon / Deep Sea Blue & Tan

My build thread:
https://ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=189245
My Howell TBI Install How-To:
https://ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=189877
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  #13  
Old 12-13-2020, 04:50 PM
80Limited 80Limited is offline
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I have a thread here on the site of what I used.
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  #14  
Old 12-13-2020, 04:52 PM
80Limited 80Limited is offline
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I think the thread is: AW4 swap complete.
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  #15  
Old 12-15-2020, 08:32 PM
fastjeep fastjeep is offline
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Join Date: Nov 20, 2009
Location: York PA
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Has anybody looked into the 6L80 from GM. Has chevy bell pattern so adapter to AMC engine thru Novak or AA. Novak has adapter to Dana 300 or NP 208 in fsj transfer. There is a controller now to operate the electronic valve body that only needs a rpm and tps signal from any engine so with Fitech injection I have on my J10 will fill those signals. The 6L80 has a 4.02 first gear for great starting torque and 5th and 6th gears are overdrive lowering cruise rpms. The trans are found in 07 to 14 various models as silverados and escalades and corvettes ( are rear mounted to transaxle ) I have one from a caprise police unit that was crashed. Will need to go to a floor shifter as column will not have the required detents. You can also use paddle shifters if you want to. The over all length is only about 2 inches longer than 727 trans.
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Old 12-16-2020, 09:35 AM
MysticRob MysticRob is offline
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Location: Boise, ID
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastjeep
Has anybody looked into the 6L80 from GM. Has chevy bell pattern so adapter to AMC engine thru Novak or AA. Novak has adapter to Dana 300 or NP 208 in fsj transfer. There is a controller now to operate the electronic valve body that only needs a rpm and tps signal from any engine so with Fitech injection I have on my J10 will fill those signals. The 6L80 has a 4.02 first gear for great starting torque and 5th and 6th gears are overdrive lowering cruise rpms. The trans are found in 07 to 14 various models as silverados and escalades and corvettes ( are rear mounted to transaxle ) I have one from a caprise police unit that was crashed. Will need to go to a floor shifter as column will not have the required detents. You can also use paddle shifters if you want to. The over all length is only about 2 inches longer than 727 trans.

Love the idea of a 6-speed to really improve the MPGs (I read in Car and Driver awhile back each gear improves things 8-12% over the next lowest gear), but it sounds overly complicated with the extra sensors and inability to mate to the column shifter. I'll think about that and see what we have locally in the yards.
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--Rob--
1988 Jeep Grand Wagoneer / Baltic Blue & Tan
2008 BMW 535xi Wagon / Deep Sea Blue & Tan

My build thread:
https://ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=189245
My Howell TBI Install How-To:
https://ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=189877
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  #17  
Old 12-16-2020, 07:04 PM
'89_Wagon '89_Wagon is offline
232 I6
 
Join Date: Jan 01, 2019
Location: New Hampshire
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Here's a link to my AW4 swap. I completed this over the summer and I think I had $1k into it. Definitely could be done for less. Little stuff adds up quick and I pieced it together. First transmission I put in was junk...$200 down the drain. Junkyard charged $400 for a low mileage one... 120k miles. Be picky about the year.. the electronics change and I would say 95/96 is the sweet spot.

Also, mounting the 4WD vacuum motor for the NP229 was challenging. Because a spacer is used between the NP229 and AW4, the bracket just doesn't work without modification. Also, there are hard vacuum lines that mount against the transmission and I did not find an easy way to secure them. Easy enough to replace them with soft lines but I didn't. I saw somewhere recently that rocklaurence makes a twin stick shifter. I would have gone with that even though it may lose some of that stock appearance. In fact... I may buy one soon!

http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=187654

FWIW, I think the 6l80 uses the same type of shifter lever on the transmission as the 4L80/4L60 so there should be some off the shelf solutions to hook that up to the column shifter. Also, there are no detents in our column shifter.... the positions felt come from the transmission manual valve body (lever thingy on the side of the transmission). Fortunately, the AW4 linkage does line up well with the stock 727 linkage.

One thing to be aware of, there's not much aftermarket support for the AW4 like replacement parts. Obviously tons for GM transmissions... and they're newer.
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  #18  
Old 05-06-2021, 08:41 AM
PlumCrazyChris PlumCrazyChris is offline
258 I6
 
Join Date: Jun 03, 2002
Location: Round Rock, Texas
Posts: 352
[quote=SC/397]Like mentioned above...
A dodge/cryco 360 is NOT an AMC engine no more than a ford 360 is a AMC engine.
Any transmission that will bolt up to the 4L AMC Jeep engine will bolt up to the AMC V8 engines.

The two automatic overdrive choices for direct bolt up to the AMC V8 and go are the Aisin AW4 or the chrysler 500SE.
I am a believer in the AW4. It is the best automatic transmission I have ever ran.
I have one in my Javelin that works great. Other than these two transmissions, you will have to use an adapter kit.


AW4 Aisin Warner Aluminum 4 oil/water 242 (4.0) 1987–2006 Jeep

500SE (42RE) Chrysler Aluminum 4 oil/water 242 (4.0) 1993–2004 Jeep


SC/397,
So your saying that these two trans will bolt up to an AMC 360/401? I thought that during those years, the engines were mopar?

I've installed a A518 (46RH) into my 70 Challenger with an 08 Hemi, so I'm familiar with making those operate, but didn't know there were AMC options of the A518/A500. And if its bolts to a 258/4.0, then it will bolt to a 360? Is that correct?

Have you done this swap successfully? If so, do you have a writeup you can provide a link too?

Thanks so much for the info!
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Last edited by PlumCrazyChris : 05-06-2021 at 08:48 AM.
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  #19  
Old 05-06-2021, 11:30 AM
tgreese's Avatar
tgreese tgreese is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlumCrazyChris
SC/397,
So your saying that these two trans will bolt up to an AMC 360/401? I thought that during those years, the engines were mopar?
...
The 5.2L and 5.7L (318 and 360) V8s that were available in the ZJ Grand Cherokee are Chrysler engines. The 4.6L V8 used in the WJ Grand Cherokee is a Chrysler engine.

Both of the applications referred to above (ZJ, WJ) were offered with the 4.0L HO six cylinder engine. The WJ got the 42RE with the 4.0L, not sure about the ZJ - probably the same. The 4.0L engine has the same bell pattern as the gen-3 AMC V8s (304, 360, 401) as well as the '71 or later 232 and 258 inline 6s. Presumably anything that bolts up to the 4.0L will bolt up to the AMC V8s, if you can sort out the starter and flex plate issues. I don't know about that.
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Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination ATs, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
ECO Green: '15 FCA Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk
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Old 05-06-2021, 11:32 AM
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rang-a-stang rang-a-stang is offline
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I'd copy this:
http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=187654
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