International Full Size Jeep Association
Home Forums Reader's Rigs Tech Library Trail Stories FSJ-List
International Full Size Jeep Association  

Go Back   International Full Size Jeep Association > Tire Kickin' > General FSJ Tech

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 02-12-2020, 08:37 AM
posulli88's Avatar
posulli88 posulli88 is offline
258 I6
 
Join Date: Dec 18, 2016
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 328
Insight into Colorado Smog test. Help

Hey All,

I might be moving to Denver this year from Massachusetts. Unlike Massachusetts Colorado test for smog and I want to get an idea of the procedures and what I am going to need to change on my 77 J10 with an AMC 360.

Unfortunately all my smog equipment is gone. The engine was rebuilt by Rick about a year ago and has been modified quite a bit. I do know my truck is a 49 states truck and not a California truck. You can see the build here:

http://http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=183735&page=3&highlight=posulli88

Here are my specs:

10:1 compression ratio
flat top Wiseco Pistons
Compcams 268H cam
Edelbrock performer non ERG intake
Headmen long tube headers
Holley Sniper
T18 transmission (4 speed)

Here is what I know:

_I will have to replace the performer intake with the performer intake with ERG so I can run ERG.

_My year truck did not come with cats so I don't think I will need to add those.

Here is what I don't know:

I am assuming I will need to add a smog pump?
So I guess I will need to remove the headers and replace with manifolds?
Which also means I need to have my exhaust modified...

What am I missing? Thanks for your help!

Here is the TSM list of smog equipment for my year highlighted in yellow:

[IMG][url=https://ibb.co/QbGmvBB][/IMG]
__________________
77' J10 w/ 360, T18, Dana 20 TC
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-12-2020, 10:11 AM
MysticRob MysticRob is offline
327 Rambler
 
Join Date: Nov 26, 2019
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 589
Quote:
Originally Posted by posulli88
Hey All,

I might be moving to Denver this year from Massachusetts. Unlike Massachusetts Colorado test for smog and I want to get an idea of the procedures and what I am going to need to change on my 77 J10 with an AMC 360.

Unfortunately all my smog equipment is gone. The engine was rebuilt by Rick about a year ago and has been modified quite a bit. I do know my truck is a 49 states truck and not a California truck. You can see the build here:

http://http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=183735&page=3&highlight=posulli88

Here are my specs:

10:1 compression ratio
flat top Wiseco Pistons
Compcams 268H cam
Edelbrock performer non ERG intake
Headmen long tube headers
Holley Sniper
T18 transmission (4 speed)

Here is what I know:

_I will have to replace the performer intake with the performer intake with ERG so I can run ERG.

_My year truck did not come with cats so I don't think I will need to add those.

Here is what I don't know:

I am assuming I will need to add a smog pump?
So I guess I will need to remove the headers and replace with manifolds?
Which also means I need to have my exhaust modified...

What am I missing? Thanks for your help!

Here is the TSM list of smog equipment for my year highlighted in yellow:

[IMG][url=https://ibb.co/QbGmvBB][/IMG]

I was under the impression that any vehicle sold from 1975 onward with a GVWR under 6000lbs should've had cats on it, as it was a federal mandate. Did the 77 J10 have a larger GVWR?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-12-2020, 12:36 PM
posulli88's Avatar
posulli88 posulli88 is offline
258 I6
 
Join Date: Dec 18, 2016
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 328
Yes, the J10 GVWR in 77 was 6025lbs. According to the TSM
__________________
77' J10 w/ 360, T18, Dana 20 TC
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-13-2020, 01:23 AM
Dave Jeeper Dave Jeeper is offline
232 I6
 
Join Date: Sep 08, 2019
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 118
Colorado Springs is near Denver and they don't have emission testing. I don't know if Colorado Springs is a possibility for you, but it could save you alot of trouble.



I live in Lakewood (Denver) and have a 1989 Grand Wagoneer. I got the Howell 50 state TBI kit on the advice of the state emissions inspector. The Howell 50 state is the only emission approved TBI kit for Colorado for my vehicle. Installing the Howell allowed me to uninstall my air pump and alot of vacuum tubing.


For your vehicle to run at our altitude, if you are coming from sea level, you will need to advance your timing by 10 degrees. Make sure that you change the timing before doing an emission test. You will probably need to change your carb jets by 2 or 3 sizes (holley carb jets change one size for each 2000 ft elevation). I was also told that the carb power valve should be changed from opening at 11" to opening at 6" vacuum for our altitude.



We have 20 per cent less air density, which means 20 per cent less oxygen, so you need less fuel for the decreased amount of air that the engine sucks in. You will also have 20 per cent less power than at sea level.


Try calling Vic at (303) 771-8779 on a Mon. or Tues. He is an inspector for the state emission inspection office. There are multiple offices around the city for special inspection. They are responsible for inspecting modified vehicles. He can advise you on what you will need to do to register your vehicle in Denver. He is very patient and will answer your questions thoroughly.



My understanding is that if you are in a county that requires emission testing (Denver and some others) then all of the original emission equipment must be installed (cat. converter, air pump, egr, pcv, charcoal cannister if orig for you year, etc.). If you put in a new engine, then it must be of the same year or newer for your vehicle. All emission equipment for that year must be installed and functional.



If you move to Denver, then you will need to bring your vehicle to a standard emission testing center (Air Care Colorado, multiple locations). They will visually inspect the vehicle for cataltic converter, etc. They will test your gas cap to make sure that it makes a good seal. They will test your fuel tank fill tube to make sure that it seals. They will put your vehicle on a dyno and make sure that it is within 20? per cent of the original designed emissions at all speeds under load for carbon monixide?, hydrocarbons and Nitro? This costs $25. If you don't pass, then you can retest for no charge within 10 days. If your tires are 35"? or larger, then you will need to go to one of a couple of special centers that can handle the big tires or put on a set of smaller tires for the test.



You will also need a VIN verification ($20?) since you are coming from out of state. This is performed at the same Air Care Colorado testing center. You take both of these forms plus proof of insurance to a local county office to register your vehicle and get a new title. You are supposed to get all of this done within 30 days of moving to Colorado.



There are alot of FSJ's in Colorado Springs because they don't require emission testing.



Call Vic! I hope that this helps.


David
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-13-2020, 01:35 AM
Dave Jeeper Dave Jeeper is offline
232 I6
 
Join Date: Sep 08, 2019
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 118
Emission testing must be performed each 2 years unless you register as a collector vehicle. Collector vehicle status may apply to your vehicle. For a privately owned passenger vehicle, you must pass emissions once before getting collector plates. I am not sure if your vehicle is eligible or not. The collector registration is for 5 years at a time.



My wife's company was able to get commercial (company owned) collector plates for a 1972 Ford large truck. The plates were for 5 years and we did not have to pass emissions since this was for a commercial vehicle. This was a few years ago, so I am a little fuzzy on the details.



By the way, a Colorado driver's license is obtained at a different office than where you register your vehicle. You can also register to vote while getting your driver's license. The waits at the driver license offices are often over an hour, but you can make an appointment in advance on their website. I highly recommend that as it will save you an hour of waiting.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-13-2020, 07:55 AM
posulli88's Avatar
posulli88 posulli88 is offline
258 I6
 
Join Date: Dec 18, 2016
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 328
Awesome Dave this is super helpful. Also seems like its going to be a huge pain for me haha. I don't have a carb on it I have the Holley Sniper Efi kit. Sounds like that is going to be an issue as well. Unfortunately, the job would be in downtown Denver so Colorado Springs is not an option.

Dave it looks like with my age of Jeep (77) I would just have to do a two step idle test and not the full dyno under load test. Which is at least a little better.

So you were able to remove the smog pump system when converting the the Howell tbi system and still pass the visual inspection?
__________________
77' J10 w/ 360, T18, Dana 20 TC
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-13-2020, 08:45 AM
babywag's Avatar
babywag babywag is offline
out of order
 
Join Date: Jun 08, 2005
Location: Land of froot loops and cukcoo-nuts, CA
Posts: 9,912
Quote:
Originally Posted by posulli88
Awesome Dave this is super helpful. Also seems like its going to be a huge pain for me haha. I don't have a carb on it I have the Holley Sniper Efi kit. Sounds like that is going to be an issue as well. Unfortunately, the job would be in downtown Denver so Colorado Springs is not an option.

Dave it looks like with my age of Jeep (77) I would just have to do a two step idle test and not the full dyno under load test. Which is at least a little better.

So you were able to remove the smog pump system when converting the the Howell tbi system and still pass the visual inspection?

Yes, the entire air pump system can go in trash where it belongs with a Howell. EGR & Vapor can is a must for testing.
CA testing is similar to CO...Here in CA you must retain a factory type exhaust system. Meaning if it originally came with single exhaust you must have single exhaust.
You may want to add that to your list of questions? Installing a CAT will greatly reduce the emissions. Even though yours is non catalyst might want to add one?
__________________
Tony
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 02-13-2020, 10:44 AM
Dave Jeeper Dave Jeeper is offline
232 I6
 
Join Date: Sep 08, 2019
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 118
When I got my Grand Wag running this past summer and brought it in for testing, I had replace the cat with a 49 state cat instead of the 50 state (california legal) catalytic converter. At the special compliance inspection (due to the Howell kit) I was told that in 2020 Colorado might start requiring the california legal cats for new cat purchases. Older cat purchases would be grandfathered in. You may want to ask about it.


If you do buy a cat, there are 2 factors to consider. First is whether you want california legal or not (california legal costs more). Federal legal is the lower standard.


Second is ceramaic or metal screen internal construction. The metal screen has better exhaust flow as far as I can tell and appears to be less likely to break in case of rough handling or impact.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 02-25-2020, 02:14 PM
posulli88's Avatar
posulli88 posulli88 is offline
258 I6
 
Join Date: Dec 18, 2016
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 328
Just got off the phone with Vic. Thanks again for that contact Dave he was incredibly helpful. Here is where we got to:

_I can keep my current Holley system and intake manifold.
_I will need a charcoal canister, smog pump, and two catalytic converters
_I can keep dual exhaust and headers, but will have to weld air pump bungs onto the headers
_I have to figure out a way for the Holley system to not get confused by the added air. Vic has done this before utilizing a mechanical system that reads from a second 02 bung in the catalytic converter when the engine is warm and Holley system starts reading from the 02

If I went with the Howell system I could get rid of the smog pump but would have to add all the other smog systems back. Going with the route above will be the cheapest and require me to add the least back.
__________________
77' J10 w/ 360, T18, Dana 20 TC
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 02-25-2020, 03:34 PM
babywag's Avatar
babywag babywag is offline
out of order
 
Join Date: Jun 08, 2005
Location: Land of froot loops and cukcoo-nuts, CA
Posts: 9,912
Rather than wreck headers why not just toss manifolds/air crap back on
and yank it/swap back to headers after test
__________________
Tony
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 02-25-2020, 04:10 PM
posulli88's Avatar
posulli88 posulli88 is offline
258 I6
 
Join Date: Dec 18, 2016
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 328
Good call Tony. I guess I would just have to figure out how to make up the distance in "missing exhaust" with the exhaust manifolds being shorter than the headers. Do you have any suggestions for a removable/ addable exhaust connection that would allow me to easily swap between the long tube headers and exhaust manifolds?
__________________
77' J10 w/ 360, T18, Dana 20 TC
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 02-25-2020, 04:58 PM
babywag's Avatar
babywag babywag is offline
out of order
 
Join Date: Jun 08, 2005
Location: Land of froot loops and cukcoo-nuts, CA
Posts: 9,912
Couple short pipes from manifold flange to existing pipes wouldn't be hard if ya can weld...if not can't imagine be too expensive @muffler shop.
__________________
Tony
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 02-26-2020, 02:15 AM
Dave Jeeper Dave Jeeper is offline
232 I6
 
Join Date: Sep 08, 2019
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 118
My original vapor canister had a vacuum leak and needed to be replaced. They no longer make a vacuum controlled charcoal canister (vapor canister) that is the same size as the original. The only one that I could find that was vacuum controlled was at OReilly's and was about half the size of the original. I wrapped the outside of the canister in some foam from a sleeping bag pad and heavy tape so that it would fit into the bracket. I also had to attach an air intake filter onto the new canister.



My gas tank was building up lots of pressure while running for a long period. This is a common problem that I am not sure if anyone has come up with a solution for. I fixed mine by replacing the PCV valve and orienting the PCV more vertically (it was horizontal before). I also blew the vacuum lines out that run between the charcoal canister and the gas tank. I disconnected the hose at the canister and blew in with an air nozzle with 100psi into the hose. Make sure that your gas cap is off and that the tank is almost empty when you do this or gas will pour out of the fill port where the cap goes (don't ask how I know!).



My tank no longer gets pressurized now, but I think that I blew some dirt into the tank as my fuel pickup is getting clogged now. I still have to pull the gas pickup to check.



The second thing is the O2 sensor. Howell has you place a single sensor on the driver side exhaust manifold immediately after the four pipes join into one. The bung faces forward (towards the radiator). I don't know if your TBI system uses one sensor or two. Howell provided a bung and I drilled a hole in the manifold while it was installed on the Jeep. I then put the bung in bolted a copper washer to keep onto the bung to protect the edge of the bung from getting weld splatter on it. Welding while on the car was difficult as it was hard to see all sides while welding. A small part had to be welded blindly. The final weld wasn't pretty but it worked. If your manifold is off the vehicle and you decide to install a bung, then I advise doing it before installing the manifold.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-18-2020, 05:57 PM
posulli88's Avatar
posulli88 posulli88 is offline
258 I6
 
Join Date: Dec 18, 2016
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 328
Update:

So I have officially moved to Denver and will have to go through smog. My two options both suck. After talking to Vic a couple months ago I thought it would be somewhat ok but I don't think so anymore.

Here are my two options:

Option 1:

_Replace my current non egr performer manifold with a egr performer (I no longer have the stock manifold and I would prefer to stay aluminum and light).
_Buy the CARB compliant Howell TBI System and pay for a chip for my upgraded engine and add spark control.
_Add catalytic converters.
_Add EGR system
_Hope it passes


Option 2:

_Keep my Sniper EFI system
_Remove headers and reinstall exhaust manifolds
_Add smog pump system. I can find everything for this system but the diverter valve, which seems impossible to find.
_Add catalytic converters

Notes on option 2:

I talked to Holley today and they said I can't run an air pump with their system. The added air will act like a vacuum leak adding air to the system which the o2 sensor tries to correct resulting in it running overly rich. Vic seems to think I could create a mechanical system that diverts the o2 reading until the system goes into closed loop so this doesn't happen. But I have no idea how this would work. The sniper system only works with one O2 sensor. I need to talk to Vic again about this.


I would really like to keep the sniper system as the idea of removing it to install another system, new intake manifold, and emissions systems sounds really not fun and expensive.

Anyone have thoughts? I feel like I am screwed haha
__________________
77' J10 w/ 360, T18, Dana 20 TC
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-18-2020, 06:37 PM
Dave Jeeper Dave Jeeper is offline
232 I6
 
Join Date: Sep 08, 2019
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 118
My Howell system has had intermittent problems since it was installed last summer. The problems got much worse a couple of months ago after taking the G Wag up to 11,000 feet. It no longer runs for more than a minute before dying. I thought that this system was plug and play. I can't recommend anyone else getting it at this point. I am holding on to my original air injection equipment and carb in case I am unable to get my $2,000 Howell fuel injection running.



I have made lots of calls to Troy at Howell and have replaced most components, but still not running.


My understanding is that the Howell system can not be modified if you want it to pass the Colorado inspection. Adding timing control may not be supported, but Vic would know for sure about this.


Rock auto has a catalytic converter for the 89 G Wag for about $120 plus shipping. It is not Calif compliant, check with Vic if it is okay to use. He told me that some time this year (2020) CO would be only allowing new installs to be CA compliant.


If you know someone outside of Denver, it might be possible to register the vehicle in a different county where there are no emissions.


David in Lakewood (Denver)
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 05-19-2020, 02:49 PM
posulli88's Avatar
posulli88 posulli88 is offline
258 I6
 
Join Date: Dec 18, 2016
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 328
Well I talked to Vic again today then went by and picked up a diagram from him on how to divert air downstream and still maintain the use of the Holley Sniper kit. This is what he gave me:



These are all parts from Ford vehicles in the 80's. Unfortunately The only part I can actually find is the temp switch. The diverter valve and vacuum filter do not come up on NAPA.com So again I feel like I am stuck. I get how the system works and think it can be the solve to my problems but I have no idea what parts these are...
__________________
77' J10 w/ 360, T18, Dana 20 TC
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 05-19-2020, 05:25 PM
Bob Barry Bob Barry is offline
Jeep Doctor
 
Join Date: Apr 09, 2000
Location: Providence, RI
Posts: 8,310
I would imagine a diverter-valve from an 80's FSJ could serve the same purpose; it is vacuum-operated like the one in the diagram. I just don't know if it would have the upstream and downstream outlet, but come to think of it, there was an AIR pipe to the cat on my '88, so perhaps it would work?
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 05-19-2020, 05:26 PM
Bob Barry Bob Barry is offline
Jeep Doctor
 
Join Date: Apr 09, 2000
Location: Providence, RI
Posts: 8,310
Oh, and I'm in the market for a Performer intake, if you ever sell your non-EGR version...
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 05-19-2020, 05:32 PM
Dave Jeeper Dave Jeeper is offline
232 I6
 
Join Date: Sep 08, 2019
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 118
The vacuum filter may be used to let air into the system when the temp switch is cold, to release any stored vacuum in the diverter valve. You could probably just wrap a small piece of black t-shirt cloth around the end of the valve and zip tie it in place to keep dirt from getting in with the air. That should function as a filter.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 05-19-2020, 05:43 PM
Dave Jeeper Dave Jeeper is offline
232 I6
 
Join Date: Sep 08, 2019
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 118
These guys are in western Pennsylvania and sell lots of old jeep parts including J10. They advertise in craigslist here in CO.



JEEPRECYCLERS.COM


You might give them a try for the diverter valve.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
76 Super Chief smog equipment djongeward General FSJ Tech 12 12-05-2010 04:03 AM
Smog pump Gurinski General FSJ Tech 4 11-03-2010 11:03 AM
Pass my Smog Test LHopper General FSJ Tech 4 07-24-2010 11:48 AM
Colorado OHV Program Funds at risk ne715 Land Use Information 0 11-04-2009 10:30 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:25 PM.


Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
corner corner