International Full Size Jeep Association
Home Forums Reader's Rigs Tech Library Trail Stories FSJ-List
International Full Size Jeep Association  

Go Back   International Full Size Jeep Association > Tire Kickin' > General FSJ Tech

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-13-2013, 04:51 PM
Fugly78's Avatar
Fugly78 Fugly78 is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Mar 08, 2013
Location: Gates, Oregon
Posts: 8
Ignition Upgrade - No Start

I recently did an upgrade to my ignition with the TFI coil, wires, etc. (AKA Team Rush Upgrade) and I went a step further and added an MSD 6A module. Worked fine and great, but I needed to get it home and do some more engine work to it.

Got my Chief home and was waiting for a day to pull the intake and work on my lifters. In the process of all I did the previous weeks, I also pulled the old cruise control box off. I was going to get a new one-piece cable, but was able to use the bottom half of the cable and attach to the speedo.

I went to start it up and drive it and test it out... No start. Cranks over just fine. Power to the MSD module, just no start. So I started checking all my wires. Everything is connected. Checked for spark. No spark. Rigged up my old coil, still no spark. Only thing I can guess is that the MSD module may be bad. I'll do a few more checks, but I think I need to send it back. Sounds like there have been issues with brand new units crapping out for no reason. I will go with a temporary measure of rolling with the HEI ignition module setup until I get the MSD back, but still, what a pain.

So today I tried just hooking up a standard, GM HEI ignition module to see if I could get it to fire that way. Still no dice. It was a bit too bright out to see a spark, but I think I heard one.

The next thing I am wondering is if maybe I accidentally unhooked something when I took the instrument cluster out and hooked up the speedometer. Since driving it home, that was the only thing I did. Is there something back behind the dash that could have come loose to prevent it from starting?

I know I get 12v when key is "on", get power when starting (starter cranks), magnetic pickup seems to be working, wiring checked and double-checked. I know I must be missing something, but what?
__________________
Josh
Gates, Oregon - Gateway to the Cascades

1978 Cherokee Chief (Widetrack) - 360/TH400/BW1339 - Driver
1984 J10 - 360/TF727/NP208 - Parts truck (you want some?)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-13-2013, 06:17 PM
the original Honcho's Avatar
the original Honcho the original Honcho is offline
Gear Head
 
Join Date: Mar 14, 2005
Location: Las Cruces, New Mexico
Posts: 618
Fuel? Seems like fuel pumps always go out at the worst time.
__________________
1980 Jeep J-20
1979 Jeep J-10 Honcho
1991 Jeep Grand Wagoneer
1975 Jeep Wagoneer- The Green Bastard, from Parts
Unknown
1968 Plymouth Satellite
1978 Camaro- back in action
1980 'Vette. Chevette. Please someone buy this
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-13-2013, 06:24 PM
Fugly78's Avatar
Fugly78 Fugly78 is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Mar 08, 2013
Location: Gates, Oregon
Posts: 8
Possibility of fuel pump, but I replaced it about 20k ago, and a couple shots of starter fluid didn't help either, but wouldn't hurt to check it and the fuel filter as well.
__________________
Josh
Gates, Oregon - Gateway to the Cascades

1978 Cherokee Chief (Widetrack) - 360/TH400/BW1339 - Driver
1984 J10 - 360/TF727/NP208 - Parts truck (you want some?)
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-13-2013, 06:30 PM
joe joe is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 28, 2000
Location: PNWet, USA
Posts: 22,392
Just cause the coil is getting voltage in the run position or the the starter cranks in the start position doesn't mean the coil is getting voltage in the start position. That's the circuit I'd be checking.
__________________
joe
"Don't mind me. I'm just here for the alibi"
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-13-2013, 09:53 PM
68glad's Avatar
68glad 68glad is offline
350 Buick
 
Join Date: Jun 01, 2006
Location: stayton,oregon
Posts: 1,042
Quote:
Originally Posted by joe
Just cause the coil is getting voltage in the run position or the the starter cranks in the start position doesn't mean the coil is getting voltage in the start position. That's the circuit I'd be checking.

Thinking outloud here.........would it still be ok to hook a jumper wire from batt+ to coil just to test the start circuit? MSD uses a capacitor(?) and doesn't provide a constant 12V to coil. MSD gurus...........
__________________
68 gladiator- 455/400/20 r.i.p.
78 wagoneer- 401, drw60, drw70, 203/205, 38's, oba, obw, hydroboost, dual p/s pump, bla bla bla

"If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything."
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-13-2013, 10:19 PM
joe joe is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 28, 2000
Location: PNWet, USA
Posts: 22,392
Quote:
Originally Posted by 68glad
Thinking outloud here.........would it still be ok to hook a jumper wire from batt+ to coil just to test the start circuit? MSD uses a capacitor(?) and doesn't provide a constant 12V to coil. MSD gurus...........
Yeah you can jumper it. I've never run an MSD coil but you should reread the your wiring instructions. If your coil needs a volt drop you want the resistor in the "run" circuit to keep from cooking the coil. During starting the start circuit should still run a full 12v to the coil.
__________________
joe
"Don't mind me. I'm just here for the alibi"
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-13-2013, 11:58 PM
babywag's Avatar
babywag babywag is offline
out of order
 
Join Date: Jun 08, 2005
Location: Land of froot loops and cukcoo-nuts, CA
Posts: 9,911
MSD has a test procedure for the box did you try it to see if you have spark?

The coil gets voltage from the MSD box not the vehicle wiring.
I wouldn't jumper anything to the coil with it connected.

The distributor pick-up or wiring would be my prime suspect.
The duraspark factory connectors aren't great.
Test the pick-up orange/purple wires with an ohmmeter should read 600-900 ohms IIRC.
I've seen the wires "look ok", but are broken internally from age/wear&tear.
__________________
Tony
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-14-2013, 12:23 AM
REDONE's Avatar
REDONE REDONE is offline
Bleedin' Gasoline
 
Join Date: Aug 19, 2002
Location: Golden, CO
Posts: 1,752
Quote:
Originally Posted by babywag
MSD has a test procedure for the box did you try it to see if you have spark?

The coil gets voltage from the MSD box not the vehicle wiring.
I wouldn't jumper anything to the coil with it connected.

The distributor pick-up or wiring would be my prime suspect.

Yup, test the box as in the instructions. I think you jumper the green and purple wires and then look for a spark when you break the connection, but double check that. If you threw out your intructions, you can find them on their website.

I agree that the pick-up in the dizzy would be my prime suspect. Nearly all the brand new MSD failures on the interwebs that bother to follow up with a conclusion find that the box wasn't the problem.
__________________
2012 Winner of the Prestigious Ouray Cast Iron Butt Award
79 J-10 - The Money Badger!
304/T18/D20/D44s
What's been did:
Holley 4160/Ede' S.P.2.P.
MSD Streetfire based TFI
Custom-hack gauge cluster
Razor swap
Fancy exhaust (Thrush Muffler)
2 knob tape deck!
3" homebuilt lift
Half a hillbilly paint job
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-14-2013, 08:11 AM
serehill's Avatar
serehill serehill is offline
Gone,Never Forgotten.
 
Join Date: Nov 22, 2009
Location: Mesquite Texas
Posts: 8,619
also

If you for some reason reverse the polarity of the distributor wiring it will not fire at all. A simple spark test will confirm that.
I agree with all above the MSD web site has a testing/troubleshooting process & they have great tech support. There's no reason to be stumped.

I went over to a guys house last year that had this same problem with all brand new stuff. He had the power to the battery tied into the battery & the ignition wire spliced into the battery feed for the MSD controller instead of on the ignition wire. I'm not saying it's your problem but it could be. Double check all connections.
When I first got my jeep there was a splice on the Motorcraft dizzy cable there was a spilce where the wires had been reversed I decided to fix it & after reversing the wires nothing no spark what so ever. I reversed them back lit right up.

Lots of documentaion & tech Support from the manufacturer. Good luck.
__________________

80 Cherokee
360 ci 727 with
Comp cams 270 h
NP208
Edlebrock performer intake
Holley 4180
Msd total multi spark.
4" rusty's springs
Member, FSJ Prissy Restoration Association

If you can't make it better why waste your time. No use repeating the orignal mistakes. I'm to old to push it that's why.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-14-2013, 12:56 PM
Fugly78's Avatar
Fugly78 Fugly78 is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Mar 08, 2013
Location: Gates, Oregon
Posts: 8
Glad to have some suggestions.

I did do the troubleshooting from the MSD instructions a couple of times, especially testing the dizzy pickup. All of my wires are new, including the wires from distributor (dizzy is new, remanufactured).

I do think it has something to do with the ignition circuit and the power "on" switch, just am stumped since it ran perfectly for several hours including a drive home, and then not running after messing with the wires behind the dash when I hooked up the speedo.

I will be working on it today, since I will have an extra set of hands and it isn't raining for a change. I will try and isolate the the problem to wires in the engine bay or otherwise.

Really, working with tech support or not, my issue seems to be wiring somewhere, so back into the rat's nest again!

Thanks again!
__________________
Josh
Gates, Oregon - Gateway to the Cascades

1978 Cherokee Chief (Widetrack) - 360/TH400/BW1339 - Driver
1984 J10 - 360/TF727/NP208 - Parts truck (you want some?)
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-14-2013, 12:59 PM
serehill's Avatar
serehill serehill is offline
Gone,Never Forgotten.
 
Join Date: Nov 22, 2009
Location: Mesquite Texas
Posts: 8,619
instant thought

check the ground closely then run a wire from the + battery to the small red wire on the MSD & see if it fires.
__________________

80 Cherokee
360 ci 727 with
Comp cams 270 h
NP208
Edlebrock performer intake
Holley 4180
Msd total multi spark.
4" rusty's springs
Member, FSJ Prissy Restoration Association

If you can't make it better why waste your time. No use repeating the orignal mistakes. I'm to old to push it that's why.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-14-2013, 07:39 PM
Fugly78's Avatar
Fugly78 Fugly78 is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Mar 08, 2013
Location: Gates, Oregon
Posts: 8
Well... Spent the afternoon working on it and got it to run. Things I did find out:

1. MSD module does not work based on any test performed
2. Distributor mag pickup works fine
3. Wires, connections, splices, grounds all check out good
4. GM HEI module creates a perfect spark
5. Fuel line is completely clogged from well before the fuel pump

So after all of those things were figured out, I knew what I need to do next, and it was time to pull the intake (that was what I originally planned to do today).

Found a worn out and collapsed lifter on cylinder #6 and a bent pushrod on cylinder #4. I knew I had a bad lifter, but didn't realize I had a bent rod.




Now I know what I need to do to make this thing run better again!
__________________
Josh
Gates, Oregon - Gateway to the Cascades

1978 Cherokee Chief (Widetrack) - 360/TH400/BW1339 - Driver
1984 J10 - 360/TF727/NP208 - Parts truck (you want some?)

Last edited by Fugly78 : 03-15-2013 at 02:05 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-16-2013, 09:01 AM
fulsizjeep's Avatar
fulsizjeep fulsizjeep is offline
Señor Jackhead
 
Join Date: Aug 21, 2002
Location: Jubilee Jeeps.SWCO
Posts: 22,477
Glad you figured out the ignition. Those MSD just scare me, but that is me. I have been zapped by a couple Jacobs and that will make you dance.

That lifter and bent push rod is not too uncommon. You can bet the cam is wiped out too.
__________________
Flint
Ran when parked.
http://jubileejeeps.org/quadratrac
88 GW, 401/727/208, 5" lift, D44s/4.10s/locked up, 35s with a few Evil Twin & TT's Fabworks mods
76 401 Wag, 77 401 Wag, 77 401 J20
http://eviltwinfab.com http://www.ttsfabworks.com
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
alternator upgrade from National Quick Start hcm General FSJ Tech 6 04-08-2008 11:21 AM
basic ignition upgrade questions ?? moneypit79 General FSJ Tech 3 12-12-2007 11:35 PM
Ignition problems! Wag will not start! Tourettes General FSJ Tech 9 01-19-2007 09:00 PM
jeep wont start starter ? solenoid? gremlins? westcoastflea General FSJ Tech 7 10-19-2006 07:39 PM
Ignition Upgrade Install Question jeep_bags General FSJ Tech 1 07-20-2004 02:40 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:21 PM.


Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
corner corner