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Old 11-28-2011, 12:29 AM
nocones nocones is offline
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5.3 swap transfer case VSS question

I'm in the middle of a 5.3 swap with a 4L60e transmission and already have most of the parts. After much research on this, and other forums, I picked up a NP241c transfer case from an 89 suburban.

My question is this: How do I get a VSS signal to the ECM with this transfer case since it has a mechanical speedo output. Will the Dakota Digital SEN-4160 adapter provide the proper signal (40 pulse per driveshaft revolution) for the ECM or do I need to go with an Advanced Adapters kit (for ALOT more $$). Will either of these send the proper signal when in 4Low?

Alternatively, I understand that the 90 and 91 suburban NP241c transfer cases have an electronic VSS instead of the mechanical speedo output. Could it be as simple as pulling the VSS from a 90-91 and putting it on my 89?
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  #2  
Old 11-28-2011, 08:29 AM
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SnowShoe SnowShoe is offline
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Me Too !!!!

I am in the same pickle....I hope someone can solve that question for you (and me).
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  #3  
Old 11-28-2011, 08:33 AM
Hook574 Hook574 is offline
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You need to find out for sure what kind of signal your ECM is looking for then you can figure out which adapter you need. If you get the right one it should work in any gear.

Go over to the Jags that run web site they are very helpful and probably have what you need at a decent price. I bought an adapter for my conversion from them but later didn't use it because I went with a standard tranny so it wasn't that important anymore.
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  #4  
Old 11-28-2011, 09:44 AM
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fsj1979 fsj1979 is offline
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Hi guys! Let's see if I can help you here. I used the $40.00 SEN-01-4160 adapter from Dakota Digital. http://www.dakotadigital.com/index.c...prod/prd57.htm
It does send an 8000 pulse signal instead of the 4000 that is called for, but Brendan from Lt1 swap was able to program the computer to accept the new signal. He just needed the tooth count for the speedo drive gear (inside t-case) and the driven gear (the gear that's attached to the cable output)
There is just a single bolt that holds the speedo output to the t-case. Remove that and it just pulls out to do your count. You will also need to tell him the rear axle ratio and tire size you plan to run. I would imagine that anyone you would have program your computer would be able to do this also. If not, Brendan only charged me $75.00 to program mine. That included return shipping. Here's the link if you like. http://www.lt1swap.com/
As far as the low-range 4wd signal goes, you will need to add your own switch somehow. I haven't done that yet, but plan on adding some kind of plunger type switch to my t-case shifter. This just changes the shift points for when you're in low-range. You can use the sender on the t-case for a 4wd light, but it won't work for the low signal, because it's on for high range too. Oh, by-the-way, the switch you use needs to complete a ground when in low-range. One more thing: You probably already know this, but you will need to switch to an electronic speedo. I ended up with the whole instrument cluster from Dakota. It made the swap a breeze and was well worth the money. I bought mine through Bj's because for some reason it was cheaper that way. A pic of my dash is on this page if you want to see it. http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showt...=140105&page=2 Hope at least some of this helps.
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1979 Cherokee Chief
2003 GM 5.3 liter Vortec
4L60E/ NP 241c/ Dana 44's/ 33" BFG KM2 muds/ 4" lift

My 5.3 swap: http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=140105
Makin' her purdy: http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=140286
Vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrqX1ip2KkM

Just keep rubbin' money on it till it shines.





Last edited by fsj1979 : 11-28-2011 at 04:46 PM.
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  #5  
Old 11-28-2011, 12:29 PM
Hook574 Hook574 is offline
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nocones,

Where is your speedo drive? Should be on the T case right? If so then you can get an adapter from jags that run, I'll post a picture of mine in just a little bit. I think it cost me about 75 bucks. It's a standard chevy speedo plug with an adapter grafted to it to convert the signal. I can't remember for sure but I think it's 4000. I also can't remember if it's square or sine wave (I think I spelled that right) It's been several years since I did my research. I'll get the part number if I can.

Here is a picture of mine, it won't work for you because it's for the wrong computer but you should be able to get one for your ECM.


Last edited by Hook574 : 11-28-2011 at 01:38 PM.
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  #6  
Old 11-28-2011, 01:47 PM
Hook574 Hook574 is offline
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I think you would need to use number one

http://stealthconversions.com/Pages/...eedometer.html
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  #7  
Old 11-28-2011, 03:02 PM
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mdill mdill is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nocones
Alternatively, I understand that the 90 and 91 suburban NP241c transfer cases have an electronic VSS instead of the mechanical speedo output. Could it be as simple as pulling the VSS from a 90-91 and putting it on my 89?

The 90-91 use a different tail housing, if you went with that style T-case you would solve your VSS issue but not have a mechanical speedometer output (I think there is a way around that problem, but from memory, it is another ~$300 and is a motor in a box that looks at the VSS signal and drives the speeometer cable)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hook574
I think you would need to use number one

http://stealthconversions.com/Pages/...eedometer.html

X2 What Hook574 said (not sure on which # though) is the cheapest cleanest way IMHO
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1977 J-10 Honcho 360-T15-D20
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1972 K20 Suburban 350 SM465 205
And the other stuff that gets driven
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Last edited by mdill : 11-28-2011 at 04:27 PM.
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  #8  
Old 11-28-2011, 06:40 PM
nocones nocones is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fsj1979
Hi guys! Let's see if I can help you here. I used the SEN-01-4160 adapter from Dakota Digital. http://www.dakotadigital.com/index.cfm
It does send an 8000 pulse signal instead of the 4000 that is called for, but Brendan from Lt1 swap was able to program the computer to accept the new signal. He just needed the tooth count for the speedo drive gear (inside t-case) and the driven gear (the gear that's attached to the cable output)
There is just a single bolt that holds the speedo output to the t-case. Remove that and it just pulls out to do your count. You will also need to tell him the rear axle ratio and tire size you plan to run. I would imagine that anyone you would have program your computer would be able to do this also. If not, Brendan only charged me $75.00 to program mine. That included return shipping. Here's the link if you like. http://www.lt1swap.com/
As far as the low-range 4wd signal goes, you will need to add your own switch somehow. I haven't done that yet, but plan on adding some kind of plunger type switch to my t-case shifter. This just changes the shift points for when you're in low-range. You can use the sender on the t-case for a 4wd light, but it won't work for the low signal, because it's on for high range too. Oh, by-the-way, the switch you use needs to complete a ground when in low-range. Hope this helps.

Hmmm...that is interesting because I just got an email back from Brendan saying that a 40 pulse sensor is needed and that something similar to the Advanced Adapters kit would work and implied that the Dakota Digital one would not. I'll follow up with him regarding programming the ECM to accept the Dakota Digital signal like you did. At this point, it may be worth just getting a 90-91 transfer case instead.
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  #9  
Old 11-28-2011, 06:47 PM
nocones nocones is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdill
The 90-91 use a different tail housing, if you went with that style T-case you would solve your VSS issue but not have a mechanical speedometer output (I think there is a way around that problem, but from memory, it is another ~$300 and is a motor in a box that looks at the VSS signal and drives the speeometer cable)



X2 What Hook574 said (not sure on which # though) is the cheapest cleanest way IMHO

I'll have to look into that adapter to see if it outputs an acceptable signal for the ECM. I probably will be going with an aftermarket speedometer so I won't need the mechanical output.
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  #10  
Old 11-28-2011, 07:06 PM
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mdill mdill is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nocones
I'll have to look into that adapter to see if it outputs an acceptable signal for the ECM. I probably will be going with an aftermarket speedometer so I won't need the mechanical output.

If you don't need a mechanical speedometer output, then a 90+ case would be a be the way to go, no reason to mess around with the cable if not needed !
Much better if possible to run stock GM parts than aftermarket where ever you can IMHO. (easier to get parts in the middle of no where if needed)
Pretty sure later driver drop pickups and tone rings will work on the 90+ pass drop 241, so you should be able the makeup a combo of factory parts with the correct pulse rate for the engine controller you have.
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1977 J-10 Honcho 360-T15-D20
1977 Cherokee WT 360-Th400-NP241 true-trac(s)
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1981 Cherokee Chief WT 360-727-NP208
1972 K20 Suburban 350 SM465 205
And the other stuff that gets driven
----------------------------------------
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  #11  
Old 11-28-2011, 07:41 PM
nocones nocones is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hook574
nocones,

Where is your speedo drive? Should be on the T case right? If so then you can get an adapter from jags that run, I'll post a picture of mine in just a little bit. I think it cost me about 75 bucks. It's a standard chevy speedo plug with an adapter grafted to it to convert the signal. I can't remember for sure but I think it's 4000. I also can't remember if it's square or sine wave (I think I spelled that right) It's been several years since I did my research. I'll get the part number if I can.

Here is a picture of mine, it won't work for you because it's for the wrong computer but you should be able to get one for your ECM.


Hook, my mechanical speedo drive is on the tail housing of the transfer case.

I just read through the entire Stealth Conversions chapter on VSS http://stealthconversions.com/V8-cha...ed-Sensors.pdf and am more confused now than when I started. It doesn't look like its been updated in a while so I don't know what applies to the newer transmissions and what doesn't.

But, I think I need #3 based on what Brendan said about requiring a 40 pulse per driveshaft revolution. Below is the description of the #3 sensor (looks the same as your picture).

3. A 40 pulse per driveshaft revolution speed sensor used on 1993 and newer trucks with automatic transmission, 1994 and newer rear drive cars (Camaro, Corvette, and Caprice) with the automatic transmission.
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  #12  
Old 11-28-2011, 08:02 PM
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fsj1979 fsj1979 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nocones
Hmmm...that is interesting because I just got an email back from Brendan saying that a 40 pulse sensor is needed and that something similar to the Advanced Adapters kit would work and implied that the Dakota Digital one would not. I'll follow up with him regarding programming the ECM to accept the Dakota Digital signal like you did. At this point, it may be worth just getting a 90-91 transfer case instead.
That IS interesting. My Jeep is living proof that he CAN do it, but maybe he's had problems with other guys info or something and decided it's too much trouble. Please let me know what he says. If you have access to a case with the right sender, I would agree it would be much easier. Are they 40 pulse senders?
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1979 Cherokee Chief
2003 GM 5.3 liter Vortec
4L60E/ NP 241c/ Dana 44's/ 33" BFG KM2 muds/ 4" lift

My 5.3 swap: http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=140105
Makin' her purdy: http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=140286
Vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrqX1ip2KkM

Just keep rubbin' money on it till it shines.




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  #13  
Old 11-28-2011, 08:34 PM
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Randyzzz Randyzzz is offline
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If you're trying to keep the stock speedo, using an adapter like the one pictured above will work. The LS computer can be reprogrammed for any number of pulses. HOWEVER- you have to make sure to connect the transfer case gear position indicator wire to let the computer know when you're in low range, or else your shifting will be all messed up in low range.

Or get the electronic transfer case, and the Dakota Digital Dash. But make sure you like the digital dash...I soled my last Waggy because my wife hated the DD dash...
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  #14  
Old 11-29-2011, 12:16 PM
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SnowShoe SnowShoe is offline
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randyzzz....

Do you have a wireing diagram on how to connect the gear position indicator wires to the ECM ?
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Old 11-29-2011, 02:57 PM
Hook574 Hook574 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nocones
Hook, my mechanical speedo drive is on the tail housing of the transfer case.

I just read through the entire Stealth Conversions chapter on VSS http://stealthconversions.com/V8-cha...ed-Sensors.pdf and am more confused now than when I started. It doesn't look like its been updated in a while so I don't know what applies to the newer transmissions and what doesn't.

But, I think I need #3 based on what Brendan said about requiring a 40 pulse per driveshaft revolution. Below is the description of the #3 sensor (looks the same as your picture).

3. A 40 pulse per driveshaft revolution speed sensor used on 1993 and newer trucks with automatic transmission, 1994 and newer rear drive cars (Camaro, Corvette, and Caprice) with the automatic transmission.

You're right I misread your first post I was thinking you were using the 89 motor. I think Randyzzz is correct you can set the computer to read most any of them. Ask the guy that's doing your computer flash about it, he should be able to help you out.

Stealth also had a speed sensor listed for 89 and newer GM 4x4's? Not sure if it would help you but you never know.
7.
Stock sensor (GM part # 15547452), shown with "pigtail" connector
Stock GM Speed Sensor, GM # 15547452, New OEM, $50, including shipping

"Pigtail" (connector replacement pack, for GM speed sensors), aftermarket, $15. including shipping



I just re-read this write up and they used two computers. It might be a pain but it could be another option.
http://www.hotrodlane.cc/PDFFILES/Lisa%20Tahoe. "


Last edited by Hook574 : 11-29-2011 at 03:26 PM.
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Old 11-29-2011, 08:07 PM
nocones nocones is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnowShoe
randyzzz....

Do you have a wireing diagram on how to connect the gear position indicator wires to the ECM ?

SnowShoe are you talking about the MLPS (park neutral switch)? There are two types of switches AFAIK.
One was a two plug version on trannies up through 2003.
After 2003 they switched to a 1 plug version that looks like this.
http://connectors.delphi.com/DCSGDMCS/DCS/Catalog/PartDetail.aspx?vUser=GuestUser&vFlag=P&vList=Y&vE xact=0&txtPartNum=15416722

The post 2003 (single plug) wiring info that I found is as follows:

Pin
Wire Color, Circuit No., Function

1
DK GRN 1433 Clutch Start Switch Signal

2-3
Not Used

4
YEL 772 Transmission Range Switch Signal B

5
BLK/WHT 771 Transmission Range Switch Signal A

6
GRY 773 Transmission Range Switch Signal C

7
BLK/WHT 451 Ground

8
WHT 776 Transmission Range Switch Signal P

9
LT GRN 275 Park Neutral Position Switch Signal

10
GRY 1524 Back-Up Lamp Supply Voltage

11
PNK 839 Ignition 1 Voltage

12
PNK 639 Ignition 1 Voltage


According to Brendan at LT1swap.com there are only 4 wires that the ECM requires (from either setup).


On the diagram below for the earlier two plug version, they are A, B, C, and D on the upper right side.
I still don't know which pins on the plug correspond to A, B, C, or D.
But, between the two, you can figure out which wires need to go to the ECM.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10199092/Par...h%20tranny.gif

EDIT: HUGE PICTURE!!! Made it a link

Last edited by FSJ Guy : 11-29-2011 at 09:13 PM. Reason: Picture TOO BIG! Saving Krista the work...
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  #17  
Old 11-29-2011, 08:19 PM
nocones nocones is offline
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The more I think about it, the more I'm wondering what the adapters are actually doing. Are they simply taking the existing mechanical pulse signal and converting it to an electrical signal with the same pulse? Or are they translating it to a 40-pulse per driveline revolution?
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Old 11-29-2011, 09:13 PM
Hook574 Hook574 is offline
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It kinda sounds like you're like me.... you got to many balls in the air, paralysis of analysis.

First decide if you for sure want the digital speedo, or the stock mechanical one. Then you can figure out whether you need the newer t case or the older one.

Digital gauge = newer style t case + wire it like factory = Done

Mechanical gauge = older style t case + adapter + switch to tell the ECM your in 4 low = Done

I think
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Old 11-29-2011, 09:15 PM
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Which PCM are you using? Some of them (namely the one I'm using, 16197427) run certain code that allows you to tell the computer that you're using a 2,000 pulse/mile VSS instead of a DRAC and the 4000 pulse/mile VSS. Of course, you'll need adapters and chip burning hardware for that.
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Old 12-01-2011, 09:18 PM
nocones nocones is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fsj1979
That IS interesting. My Jeep is living proof that he CAN do it, but maybe he's had problems with other guys info or something and decided it's too much trouble. Please let me know what he says. If you have access to a case with the right sender, I would agree it would be much easier. Are they 40 pulse senders?

Here is Brendan's response:

If you have all the drive/driven gear information, I will program it, however, I have seen some applications where it will not shift the trans correctly. I know the 96-99 black box vortec does not work correctly, but I have done it on a LT1 I think. So going into it, it SHOULD work, but not 100% for certain. I know it can save some money if it will work, as opposed to getting a 40 pulse sensor in there.

-Brendan.

Last edited by nocones : 12-02-2011 at 08:52 PM.
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