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  #1  
Old 11-16-2004, 11:34 AM
dnixon dnixon is offline
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Well guys I know you have all be reading up on RJ44's build as I have been. Some on the adapter creation he is doing. Well he had some issues with adapters available and the shafts.

AA only offers a 23 spline input shaft, he wants 31. So I talked to the engineer at AA and he told me to check out stress risers and then also gave me a list of other reasons why they only do the 23.

So I checked out my shaft design book and sure enough he was right.. When you have a larger input shaft with the same internal shaft, as in the case of the Klune V, you increase your stress riser and roughly INCREASE the likely hood of breaking that internal shaft by about 5%.

So technically you would have a stronger set up with a 23 spline input shaft.. it would be even strong if you went down to a shaft that was equal to the klune's internal shaft which is about 1.125" in diameter.

Now let the discussion begin.

[ November 17, 2004, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: dnixon ]
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Old 11-16-2004, 12:14 PM
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Alright ill bite. I don’t see how it can make it weaker, I see how it could change the weak link to the internal shaft, the internal shaft isn’t weaker though, and rather the things around it are stronger, thus making it the weak link.

And are we talking about the david or goliath klune?

Obviously klune doesn’t offer bigger internal shafts, can one make a bigger shaft for it?

And in a real world scenario how much is 5%? Could it still be beneficial to run the bigger shaft (i.e. what’s the percentage of breaking the other shaft compared from the larger to smaller).

Just some questions to ponder.
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Old 11-16-2004, 12:15 PM
KYJ10 KYJ10 is offline
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I see what he is trying to do, but I would just stay 31 spline, and not worry about the extra 3 or so inches. Not much difference in rear shafts wheather it's 12" or 15". Either way, it's gonna cost $$ to have a good one made. I assume thats why he is trying to shorten things. I was gonna do some similar, but Luke, the engineer who designes the Klune, states that the 31 spline setup is much stronger. Anyway, the real torque is out the back of the tcase, so thats where I would worry about brakage.
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Old 11-17-2004, 01:03 AM
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well, i would trust that the AA engineers know what they are talking about. if i was ordering the stuff,id follow their advice and stay with the 23 spline,but since RJ allready has a 31 spline klune,it would be silly for him to worry about 5% IMO,and fool with sending the unit back and exhcanging for a 23 spliner.

are we talking the 435s output shaft is 5% weaker being shorter and 31 spline?if so, in a worse case you break a 435 shaft,find another and have it resplined when that happens.i doubt it will ever break.

the klune has a female spline input gear,exactly what internal shaft are we talking about?
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Old 11-17-2004, 03:08 AM
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So in laymans terms basically what that guy is saying is to make the output of the Transmission smaller so in the case of breakage it would break before the klune? That just doesn't make sense to me, mabye I'm not understanding totally but my theory is to build everything as strong as you can which is why I went with the 31 spline and long adapter. Plus, check out this shaft in the klune (i have the goliath 2.7 btw).



That's a big arse mofo. I don't see that breaking. If anything I'm thinking I'll strip the splines on my output shaft because of how I had to (modify) it.



In that case I'll just get a new output shaft and have it splined correctly and heat treated. But, based on my experience with my homemade 35 spline stubs in my Ford Dana 60 (I shortened the shaft and extended the splines with my cutoff wheel) it should hold up just fine. Just out of curiosity what do you think sees more torque, the output shaft of my 435 or the stub shaft of my Dana 60 when I had 135lbs tire/wheel combo with 2.75in backspacing. That's the real question because I never broke a stub.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by welchct
There are about 5 trails that actualy have section that are upwards of 85* and climb 40-50 feet at this deg.

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Old 11-17-2004, 03:51 AM
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The main problem lies with the change in diameter in the shaft.

This change causes a stress riser, which is a concentrated point that will have higer levels of stress then the rest of the shaft. Due to the higher lever of stress this is the point on the shaft that will break first.
This is totally property indifferent it's simply due to the shaft design.

Since the shaft is hopefully only taking on torsional stress trying to twist it, I only analyzed torsional stress. The main factor in the equation for nominal torsional stress is Kt, the Concentration factor.

Now to get Kt you need a chart, I have supplied one below. Its not the exact same one I used but the data is very similar. As you can see from the graph. To get Kt it is a factor of several things: d=smaller shaft diameter (the internal klune shaft), D= The larger diameter (the outside of the female mating area), and r= The radius provided between the small shaft to the large shaft.

Now based on the numbers provided to me by AA I was able to find Kt on this chart.

The Kt I got for the larger shaft was roughly Kt=2.0 and the Kt for the smaller input shaft was roughly Kt=1.95. All the rest of the numbers in the equation for nominal torsional stress are the same leaving Kt as the deciding factor.

That is how I got the 5% higher probability of breaking the smaller shaft due to having a larger input shaft.

This is also not taking into effect the lower MTBF (Mean Time Between Failure) due to having higher stress in the area. So not only will the shaft break easier but it will also break sooner.

I am in now way saying to try to return your stuff. I was just as amazed as you guys probably are that a bigger shaft makes it easier to break. But once i re-read my material on shaft design I quickly recalled how that was the case.





I'll try to get up the dimensions I used, the cad JPG was too larger to post. You can also probably get some dims off of your stuff too RJ44 compare and see if the stuff i used was close.
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Old 11-17-2004, 03:54 AM
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I didn't know you had the goliath.. That probably changes everything [img]smile.gif[/img] I am assuming the data I got was for the David 4.0. Maybe if you can get some numbers for me I can try to run the calcs on it.
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Old 11-17-2004, 07:01 AM
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I didnt know we were talking about the back of the tranny. There isn't enough torque there to worry about. All the torque is at the next two outputs!
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Old 11-17-2004, 10:51 AM
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Okay.. I retract my statements above.

After digging deeper into this project I found that the shaft doesn't neck down like normal input adapters. It actually goes right into the sun gear for the Planetary gear. Thus making it the exact opposite of what I said.

So you are getting a stronger product by going with the 31 spline. Sorry for all the BS above.. The principles still apply it was just the dimensions of the product that was off.

Doh...
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Old 11-18-2004, 12:07 AM
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Hell yea...I gots the beef! [img]smile.gif[/img] 23 spline can lick my nuts

edit: It was still a cool thread

[ November 18, 2004, 06:08 AM: Message edited by: rockjeep44 ]
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Quote:
Originally Posted by welchct
There are about 5 trails that actualy have section that are upwards of 85* and climb 40-50 feet at this deg.

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Old 11-18-2004, 02:02 AM
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well thats good to know.
props for doing the research and getting to the bottom of things.
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Old 11-18-2004, 04:13 AM
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Didn't sound right to me. Why would there be a 32 spline upgrade kit, that has a lot of demand, for the 23 spline Dana 300 and to wimpy Dana 20 if they were stronger.

I also wondered why when Dodge started using the Ho Cummins, why did they upgrade to 32 spline outers in the NP205? Certainly no because they are weaker.

Was interesting but I didn't think it could be.
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Old 11-18-2004, 05:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by FSJeeper:
Didn't sound right to me. Why would there be a 32 spline upgrade kit, that has a lot of demand, for the 23 spline Dana 300 and to wimpy Dana 20 if they were stronger.
Apples and oranges..

The upgrade for Dana 20's and Dana 300's (10 spine and 26 spline)was originally for the rear output, now they're making an upgrade to the front output.

This thread is about discussing input shafts.

I don't know of too many people who have had problems with 23 spline inputs. Have I missed something?
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Old 11-18-2004, 05:59 AM
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Yea, you've never seen me drive
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Quote:
Originally Posted by welchct
There are about 5 trails that actualy have section that are upwards of 85* and climb 40-50 feet at this deg.

"The combination of fine split tail and fine whiskey will make any man lose focus." -FSJeeper
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Old 11-18-2004, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by full_hydro:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by FSJeeper:
Didn't sound right to me. Why would there be a 32 spline upgrade kit, that has a lot of demand, for the 23 spline Dana 300 and to wimpy Dana 20 if they were stronger.
Apples and oranges..

The upgrade for Dana 20's and Dana 300's (10 spine and 26 spline)was originally for the rear output, now they're making an upgrade to the front output.

This thread is about discussing input shafts.

I don't know of too many people who have had problems with 23 spline inputs. Have I missed something?
</font>[/quote]Yep, read your above statement: "now they're making an upgrade to the front output."

You answered your own question. There would be no demand for 32 spline input shaft kits unless there was a problem with 23 spline inputs.

"This thread is about discussing input shafts."
Thats right, and comparing the relative strength of the outputs (which recieve more torque) is a logical and useful extension of this discussion.

But, no matter how you view it, 23 spline inputs are wimpy, Dana 300's are wimpy, and Dana 20's/18's are even more wimpier.

So, you have to ask yourself, "Do I feel wimpy?"
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Old 11-18-2004, 08:17 AM
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Who makes 32 spline input upgrades?
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Old 11-18-2004, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by rockjeep44:
Yea, you've never seen me drive
I've seen some video of Chris Durham and I think that you'll be fine with 23-spline or 32-spline. But you get no bling points for 23-spline... so carry on.
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Old 11-19-2004, 01:26 AM
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theres gotta be a reason they dont offer a 31 spline shaft with the short adapter kit. but hey,what do those AA engineers know
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Old 11-19-2004, 05:58 AM
dnixon dnixon is offline
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Because the Klune is based on a jeep 6 bolt round NP transfer case, NP241 I believe. The klune is mostly off the shelf parts from other vendors. The manufacture the housing and the input and output stuff though, well they contract it out to be done [img]smile.gif[/img] .

So for AA they have an adapter that is to go with those smaller input shafted Jeep NP transfer case which were 23 spline. For them to make an adapter to mate the Fords 31 spline they would have to redesign the adapter, re-engineer it, and test it and all that other stuff.. There just isn't enough profit in the end for it.

That was the main reason I got for them not doing it.
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Old 11-19-2004, 07:26 AM
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Well, leave it to me to break the **** mold. I swear it took me hours to extend all those d*mn splines. Oh well, it'll be worth it [img]smile.gif[/img]
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Quote:
Originally Posted by welchct
There are about 5 trails that actualy have section that are upwards of 85* and climb 40-50 feet at this deg.

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