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  #1  
Old 04-25-2000, 05:01 PM
River Beast River Beast is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 18, 2000
Location: Lakewood, Calif
Posts: 11,642
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I got a crazy idea about finally going thru with a SOA... but certain SERIOUS issues are holding me up...

First I'll explain the "crazy" part... I presently have 4" Skyajcker Softride with 3" Trailmaster bodylift, 33x12.50's and run a full-time Quadrtrac unit with the front drive shaft having the double -cardin U-joint on the QT side. GM Killer has seen my beast and knows how I feel about going extreme in all my endeavors. Now for the question:

Is it possible to run the front driveshaft with a double-cardin U-joint at this steep of angle ( from stock height, the suspension lift will be a total of 11"--4" from the Skyjacker and 7" from the SOA)? I've been told a 30 degree angle was max and this SOA would push over this limit. I have seen one FSJ done this way and can't seem to find a way to get in touch with him from the reader's rig page. Anyone else insane enuf to have done this or pondered the thought... please respond.
IF the driveline is the only concern to cause me to worry, I have heard of other "monsters" running a dual double-cardin U-joint setup--- one at each end of the front driveshaft to compensate for the angle and vibes casued by the angle.

Any other concerns I may be overlooking would be appreciated.



------------------
TJ
78 Wagoneer "River Beast"
360/TH400/QT
4" Skyjacker Softride
3" Trailmaster Bodylift
33x12.50's
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  #2  
Old 04-25-2000, 05:10 PM
KENALL
 
Posts: n/a
Wink


sure u can do this...
but u will have to get the 'top of steering knuckle' conversion from hicks 4x4 in pomona Ca or urll have unsafe steering.

also, in order to reduce the ujoint angles..urll have to 'rotate' ur QT clockwise (as seen from the rear) 1 or 2 bolt positions, of the adaptor at the tranny, to bring down the xcase ujoints. this will in turn require a nu rear xmember...

other wise..u have no bidness doing this lift.


------------------
1966 Super Wagoneer
'The Predecessor'
http://home.earthlink.net/~kenns9/index.html
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  #3  
Old 04-25-2000, 05:45 PM
GM Killer GM Killer is offline
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Location: Yuma, AZ
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Todd,
I think your biggest problem is gonna be with the alignment issue. Were talking MAJOR bumpsteer here unless you get your angles dialed in right.

------------------
79 Cherokee Cheif Wide Trac
Transplanted 401 w/ Edelbrock Performer Package
TH400 / Q-Trac
4" Skyjacker Softride lift
3 inch bodylift
35" Mud T/A's
____________________
99' Mustang Cobra -
320 HP F-body eater
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  #4  
Old 04-26-2000, 01:27 AM
River Beast River Beast is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 18, 2000
Location: Lakewood, Calif
Posts: 11,642
Question

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KENALL:

sure u can do this...
but u will have to get the 'top of steering knuckle' conversion from hicks 4x4 in pomona Ca or urll have unsafe steering.

also, in order to reduce the ujoint angles..urll have to 'rotate' ur QT clockwise (as seen from the rear) 1 or 2 bolt positions, of the adaptor at the tranny, to bring down the xcase ujoints. this will in turn require a nu rear xmember...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have heard of the SOA steering, never actually seen it, and your site doesn't have a pic showing it. Do you have any pics and what type of mods have to be done to the knuckles, if any? Maybe just a brief explanation of what is done might help...

Also, you mentioned rotating the xt-case... I have a QT... haven't looked yet... but if memory serves correctly, I have a 4 bolt adapter plate. By rotating it I see how this would take out the angle, but the x-member would most likely have to be fabricated to accomodate the angled QT for clearance.... is this a good assumption



------------------
TJ
78 Wagoneer "River Beast"
360/TH400/QT
4" Skyjacker Softride
3" Trailmaster Bodylift
33x12.50's
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  #5  
Old 04-26-2000, 04:55 AM
porkchop's Avatar
porkchop porkchop is offline
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Location: Corpus Christi, TX 78414
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Hey RiverBeast, remember when I was over there the other day? I had a SOA on my beast. I have a dropped pitman and I do not experience any real bump steer. My main problem is my steering box has so much play in it I can not have it aligned at the shop. I tried to tighten it, but no luck. If you want me to come on over so you can looked at it again just let me know.

------------------
1967 Wagoneer with orginal 327 w/3spd XMSN
D27 in the front
D44 in the rear
D20 XSFER Case
SPOA in the front with 4" blocks in the rear and add-a-leafs
32X11.50 A/T's
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  #6  
Old 04-26-2000, 08:28 AM
River Beast River Beast is offline
 
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Location: Lakewood, Calif
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KENALL:

also, in order to reduce the ujoint angles..urll have to 'rotate' ur QT clockwise (as seen from the rear) 1 or 2 bolt positions, of the adaptor at the tranny, to bring down the xcase ujoints. this will in turn require a nu rear xmember...

other wise..u have no bidness doing this lift.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Kenall,
After I got out and looked at the adapter, I realized you meant.... is two bolt rotations on the adapter enuf or do I just have to play with it to see what will work?

Also, can I modify (make) a custom bracket to make up for the angle of adapter mount holes (after the 2-bolt rotation) to make the mount sit in the original position on the X-member without hacking up the x-member itself? Just a thought...
lemme know - thanks for all the help... wanna do this right THE FIRST TIME!!!


------------------
TJ
78 Wagoneer "River Beast"
360/TH400/QT
4" Skyjacker Softride
3" Trailmaster Bodylift
33x12.50's
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  #7  
Old 04-26-2000, 08:31 AM
Dean Dean is offline
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Join Date: Apr 09, 2000
Location: Medford,Oregon
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For what it's worth, my old ('70) caddy had double joints at both ends of the shaft. So it's not too radical of an idea, I would go that route. Dean

------------------
'78 Wagoneer Limited
401/Q-trac W/low range
Stock for now.........
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  #8  
Old 04-26-2000, 08:31 AM
River Beast River Beast is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 18, 2000
Location: Lakewood, Calif
Posts: 11,642
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by porkchop:
Hey RiverBeast, remember when I was over there the other day? I had a SOA on my beast. I have a dropped pitman and I do not experience any real bump steer. My main problem is my steering box has so much play in it I can not have it aligned at the shop. I tried to tighten it, but no luck. If you want me to come on over so you can looked at it again just let me know.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I remember... the thing you have to realize is that I already have an additional 4" of lift and a drop pitman already... If you wanna stop over my place tonight on your way home from work, that's cool... I don't recall if you have seen the beast up and personal. This will give you a better understanding of my dilema with driveline angles and not so much a steering concern.

Shoot me and email and I call you...



------------------
TJ
78 Wagoneer "River Beast"
360/TH400/QT
4" Skyjacker Softride
3" Trailmaster Bodylift
33x12.50's
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  #9  
Old 04-26-2000, 09:28 AM
irbob's Avatar
irbob irbob is offline
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Join Date: Apr 11, 2000
Location: Huachuca City, AZ 85616
Posts: 2,788
Cool

Will a transfer drop kit work to lessen the angle? Someone makes em.

------------------
1983 Wagoneer Brougham
Engine: AMC 8-360 OHV
Transfer Case: NP 229
Auto Trans: Chrysler 999
F Diff: Dana 44F
R Diff: AMC 8 7/8" ring gear
31X10.5 Pathfinders
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  #10  
Old 04-26-2000, 11:10 AM
River Beast River Beast is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 18, 2000
Location: Lakewood, Calif
Posts: 11,642
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by irbob:
Will a transfer drop kit work to lessen the angle? Someone makes em.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thought about that... the idea would seem to work (and does on many other vehicles) except the natural angle of the front output shaft is tilted upward from the get-go... thus dropping the QT lower (tilting rearward pivoting from the motor mounts)would relatively increase this angle even more (theoretically). The x-member would not be too hard to mod for this if I felt as if this were the ONLY alternative...plus I wwould lose a couple inches of clearance which is ther reasoning for me gathering all the info I can on making this work right. Thanks for the input and ideas. I will definitely keep this in mind.

------------------
TJ
78 Wagoneer "River Beast"
360/TH400/QT
4" Skyjacker Softride
3" Trailmaster Bodylift
33x12.50's

[This message has been edited by River Beast (edited April 26, 2000).]
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  #11  
Old 04-26-2000, 01:56 PM
KENALL
 
Posts: n/a
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yes river beast, u r answering ur own questions

in the EXTREME..imagine if u will, u mounted ur QT VERTICAL behind the tranny, so its ujoints r below the tranny and dead center of the frame. in this configuation...u cood run a substantail lift...but at this height..hydrualic steering wood be ur only route...this wood also require haveing diffs that r centered FRONT n REAR...

think of GM fulls size steering. the D side knuckle has the arm bolted to its top. the kit, or if u want to make them urself...drills and taps the knuckles for 3 studs. and...usually...includes the steering arms as well. then u just bolt the arms on top of the knuckles, reinstall them to ur diff ends, and bolt on the tie rod.

BTW..if u have ur own knuckles converted...they MUST be the versions that have a FLAT section on the top, OUTBOARD of the ball joint...

i do not recommend SOA for those street FSJs were normal store kits r avail. SOA in my case was necessary cuz no 1 made a lift kit for a 66 wag..and i use my wag for offroad only...

------------------
1966 Super Wagoneer
'The Predecessor'
http://home.earthlink.net/~kenns9/index.html

[This message has been edited by KENALL (edited April 26, 2000).]
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  #12  
Old 04-26-2000, 03:48 PM
River Beast River Beast is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 18, 2000
Location: Lakewood, Calif
Posts: 11,642
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Kenall,
I understand the concept of changing the steering.... I saw your SOA page and it doesn't show the SOA steering mod on the knuckles. Visually shown in your pics, it looks as if your only modified the draglink to compensate for bump steer. Also, I would not run the QT vertical... though that would be EXTREME... no,no,no... not THAT extreme...rotating 1 or 2 bolts on the adapter seems feesable as you had mentioned.

I will have to see how I decide to go about all this and what it will take for time and money.

If you had some pics you could send of the Knuckles you are referrring to... send them to me at spazz4life@yahoo.com. I would really like to see this on a vehicle. THis would help me better understand the concept.



------------------
TJ
78 Wagoneer "River Beast"
360/TH400/QT
4" Skyjacker Softride
3" Trailmaster Bodylift
33x12.50's
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  #13  
Old 04-26-2000, 04:04 PM
KENALL
 
Posts: n/a
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sorry its not hicks...its tri county gear
www.tricountygear.com

in pomona...if u look at the may issue of 4wd and sport utility, on page 62...there is an add. in the add urll see the 'SO steering' conversion and a small pic..

i dont have SO steering, cuz it wernt invented when i did my lift, and even tho i have bump steer, my lift is more moderate and i dont use it on the street...so i can deal with the steering.



------------------
1966 Super Wagoneer
'The Predecessor'

http://home.earthlink.net/~kenns9/index.html
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  #14  
Old 04-26-2000, 05:34 PM
fulmetal fulmetal is offline
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Join Date: Apr 13, 2000
Location: New Holland, Pa.
Posts: 328
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All you have to do is get two steering nuckles of of a chevy d 44 and place them on your axle. After of course you take the chevy horseshoe off (what a pain that is) You have to drill and tap the Pass. side in the same bolt pattern as the driv. side and use the lifting blocks to get the steering up over the spring. I thought about the double cardin joint and all that would do is actually increase your working angle bvecause you will make the shaft shorter. I had to customize my crossmember.

I also went back to an original pair of springs.. I had the 4" springs and they put the rig way to high. Felt unstable on the slightest of offcamber trails. Because there is sometimes when you cannot help but follow those pucker trails.
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  #15  
Old 04-27-2000, 10:53 AM
Dean Dean is offline
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Location: Medford,Oregon
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fulmetal:


I also went back to an original pair of springs.. I had the 4" springs and they put the rig way to high. Felt unstable on the slightest of offcamber trails. Because there is sometimes when you cannot help but follow those pucker trails.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you still have the 4" lift and if so is it for sale? If so email me at deanrd350@aol.com and let me know the details, brand, price, age. TIA Dean

------------------
'78 Wagoneer Limited
401/Q-trac W/low range
Stock for now.........
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  #16  
Old 04-27-2000, 03:16 PM
Dean Dean is offline
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Join Date: Apr 09, 2000
Location: Medford,Oregon
Posts: 270
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A couple of thoughts, 1. I wonder if saginaw ever built a common steering box that has a longer "reach" so that the sector shaft is 4-6" longer. Would need a brace though, hummm.... 2. If I recall correctly I read about putting a steering arm on top of the knuckle and they were using ones off of a Jeep commando, had the flat top. Dean


------------------
'78 Wagoneer Limited
401/Q-trac W/low range
Stock for now.........
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  #17  
Old 04-27-2000, 03:22 PM
KENALL
 
Posts: n/a
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hey dean...pre 77 ford broncos...or was it scouts???

------------------
1966 Super Wagoneer
'The Predecessor' http://home.earthlink.net/~kenns9/index.html

[This message has been edited by KENALL (edited April 27, 2000).]
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  #18  
Old 04-28-2000, 11:44 AM
fulmetal fulmetal is offline
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Join Date: Apr 13, 2000
Location: New Holland, Pa.
Posts: 328
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NO i gave them to my buddy who has a 79 chief. The only knuckles that are trully flat on top are the Chevy type. They are the only ones that use that style steering. There are a couple of options that are still open to you. You can go with some type of Z link for the stearing linkage but I felt that that looked hoky and was not nearly as strong as a straight bar like the original. I will tell you that it will make it a lot easier on your self if you use the Z link! There are a lot of concernes with the relocation that have to be considered. Such as wheel spacing,Tie rod shortening etc. Now that mine is complete it looks good with all of the linkage up out of harms way. thanks
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  #19  
Old 04-29-2000, 09:19 PM
KENALL
 
Posts: n/a
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fullmetal...did u c my Z bar on my site..it aint hoky , and its got me thru the rubicon 6 times so far and its only 4 years old.

on the flat top knuckles..i disagree, the units on my 77 wag d44 have 'undrilled' flat tops, that cood be drilled by the right experience and tools...



------------------
1966 Super Wagoneer
'The Predecessor' http://home.earthlink.net/~kenns9/index.html
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  #20  
Old 04-30-2000, 11:38 AM
fulmetal fulmetal is offline
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Location: New Holland, Pa.
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Ok I have not seen those knuckels off of your 77. As for the my d44 they were a little flat on the top but not nearly as flat as a chevy. I Just prefer the up out of the wat steering. It just looks a lot cleaner. As would not rate the rig on the rubicon. Ben there done that on 31's try your rig out at johnson valley on the hammer trails. They are routhless!!!
All of the soa we do on the small cj's we use the Ford d44 high pinnion w/ the chevy knuckels

I saw the picture of your rig and the steering mods. I still like the straight steering set up.


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