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  #41  
Old 06-13-2011, 06:36 PM
myk myk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill USN-1
The lift pump isn't needed and actually adds another fail point in the system.
The main pump works fine if mount at or near the bottom level of the tank and close to the tank.
Pumps push much better then they pull and work less.


There was no place to mount the HP pump close to the tank and low enough, it was discussed earlier in the thread. Would have also required alot more high pressure tubing/hose. The pump starvation is a major issue with these tanks that are not made to feed EFI pumps, any funny angle or acceleration with 1/4 tank or less and the pump will suck air and EFI don't like that at all. The lift pump/accumulator setup eliminates all these issues. I'll take my chances on the reliability of the Carter pump, seemed to outweigh all the other negatives imho.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill USN-1
You have also mounted the pump in the engine bay which induces heat directly to the pump(headers!) and yes, EFI can and will vapor lock if too much heat is introduced.
With a constant return system, all the heat in the fuel as it passes through the engine bay will be returned to the tank. Over time the heat will continue to build.
Heat is also the #1 killer of the pump. And now you mounted right next to the hottest temp created by the engine. How many factory installs have the EFI pump mounted in the engine bay? Most are in the tank to use the fuel to cool them.

I'm not telling you what to do but I have tried most different installation methods and had to fix many. Just trying to save you some frustration.
Even seen guys use the stock engine pump to feed the efi pump.

The method I documented on BinderPlanet works.

If you do nothing else then at least add heat shields around the pump.


Point well taken, I will definitely watch the temps, and have already thought of adding a shield or moving the pump if necessary. The pic is probably a bit deceiving as the pump is below the headers a good amount. Where do you think the stock pump is located (it's in an even hotter location)....

Mike

Last edited by myk : 06-13-2011 at 06:41 PM.
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  #42  
Old 06-13-2011, 11:48 PM
Bill USN-1 Bill USN-1 is offline
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I'm sure you did lots of reading before deciding on this set up.

BTDT
Even made my own surge tank out of some scrap exhaust pipe.
Cheaper then buying one.







But in the end...I find it really isn't needed. Just makes you feel better.

And for dual tanks, Just use a 6 port switch valve so you can switch the feed and returns with the same valve.
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Hamilton Fuel Injection
75 scout XLC 345/727/JPD300/3.73's/33's/4wdisc/hydroboost/EFI/OBA/OBW
1977 Innocenti 1001 (Italian Mini)EFI 1275/DIS
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  #43  
Old 06-14-2011, 05:59 AM
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Billygoat Billygoat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill USN-1
And for dual tanks, Just use a 6 port switch valve so you can switch the feed and returns with the same valve.

X2 - I started with a 3 port valve on Thumper with a T'd return, but it does not work correct, #1 full will dump fuel out the vent instead of going to empty #2, and #1 under 1/2 tank likes to return to #2 and wil even push it out the vent if #2 is full????? - yes crazy

here is the one I have now
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0016HT92G

IIRC the return in only 5/16" not 3/8" - feed is 3/8"
not sure if that will work for this application
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  #44  
Old 06-14-2011, 09:32 AM
Bill USN-1 Bill USN-1 is offline
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Quote:
Where do you think the stock pump is located (it's in an even hotter location)....
HMM guess I could take this as a lack of knowledge or an attempt at humor?
You can't compare a mechanical diaphram 2-5psi carb lift pump to a high pressure EFI vane or gerotor electric pump. One is driven and the other drives and creates it's own heat.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Billygoat

IIRC the return in only 5/16" not 3/8" - feed is 3/8"
not sure if that will work for this application

I use the pollak style. It is motor driven and also has the ability to switch the fuel sender wire with the supplied switch. Plenty listed on ebay under fuel tank switch or valve. but not all come with the connector and switch.

I have ran 3/8" feed and 5/16" return on all my systems without problems.
It's the small diameter brass fittings that may cause a problem.
I use steel brake line for the most of the runs and just make the connections with short pieces of hose.
I also add a small double flare to the end to prevent a hose from popping off.

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Hamilton Fuel Injection
75 scout XLC 345/727/JPD300/3.73's/33's/4wdisc/hydroboost/EFI/OBA/OBW
1977 Innocenti 1001 (Italian Mini)EFI 1275/DIS

Last edited by Bill USN-1 : 06-14-2011 at 10:38 AM.
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  #45  
Old 06-14-2011, 03:34 PM
myk myk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill USN-1
HMM guess I could take this as a lack of knowledge or an attempt at humor?

Neither actually, I was just stating a fact. What data do you have that supports a higher failure rate with a HP efi pump failing in this environment vs. the stock pump? With the amount of cool fuel flowing through the HP pump I have to believe it would stay cooler than the factory setup. The heat produced by the pump itself is minimal as I measured the power consumption of the pump at 3.5A @ 12.5v for ~44watts probably half of that is wasted work turned into heat which is nothing for the surface area of the tank to dissipate. I plan on attaching a thermocouple (since I already have them) to the body of the pump and the filter canister to see the effects.

Mike
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  #46  
Old 06-14-2011, 08:20 PM
FSJ Guy FSJ Guy is offline
 
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Play nice everyone.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.
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  #47  
Old 06-21-2011, 04:51 PM
myk myk is offline
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It runs , fired it up on Sunday after finishing up all the wiring. So far so good, had it running for a few hours in the driveway checking everything out, just need to get out and do some tuning now. I went ahead and removed all the factory ignition system while I was making the wiring harness and let MS control the ignition as well.

One thing I had to do was add a diode to the alternator sense line, as it was back feeding the ECU with the key off and the engine wouldn't turn off with the factory resistance wire. Just took the resistor wire out all together and replaced it with the diode setup..problem solved.

Just need to finish up a few odds and ends and it will be road worthy and I can get to the tuning phase.

Mike

Last edited by myk : 06-21-2011 at 04:53 PM.
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  #48  
Old 06-21-2011, 10:41 PM
FSJ Guy FSJ Guy is offline
 
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Sweet! You'll enjoy the computer controlled timing!
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1987 Grand Wagoneer, slightly longer than stock.

www.bigscaryjeep.com

Don't mess with me. I once killed a living hinge.
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  #49  
Old 09-17-2011, 11:23 AM
PITFSJ PITFSJ is offline
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Is she still working?

Quote:
Originally Posted by myk
It runs , fired it up on Sunday after finishing up all the wiring. So far so good, had it running for a few hours in the driveway checking everything out, just need to get out and do some tuning now. I went ahead and removed all the factory ignition system while I was making the wiring harness and let MS control the ignition as well.

One thing I had to do was add a diode to the alternator sense line, as it was back feeding the ECU with the key off and the engine wouldn't turn off with the factory resistance wire. Just took the resistor wire out all together and replaced it with the diode setup..problem solved.

Just need to finish up a few odds and ends and it will be road worthy and I can get to the tuning phase.

Mike


Hi Mike

Have done fine tunning?

How has been she working now?


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  #50  
Old 09-18-2011, 11:01 PM
myk myk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PITFSJ
Hi Mike

Have done fine tunning?

How has been she working now?



It running very well, I've got the fuel side pretty well sorted, been running the stock MS timing table but have a new one that I'm going to try, was also able to find the factory timing curves as a reference. One thing about diy efi is there's always something to tinker with It's very drivable as it is now, I really need to focus on getting the cage done.

Mike
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  #51  
Old 09-18-2011, 11:26 PM
FSJ Guy FSJ Guy is offline
 
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It IS fun to tinker with, isn't it?!!!
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1987 Grand Wagoneer, slightly longer than stock.

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Don't mess with me. I once killed a living hinge.
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  #52  
Old 09-25-2011, 11:28 AM
myk myk is offline
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Here's the ignition table I've been running, so far so good no signs of knock with regular unleaded. Any comments or suggestions?

Note: the load axis is percent barometer.



Mike
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  #53  
Old 10-19-2011, 02:33 AM
myk myk is offline
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In the process of installing 8 LS2 "yukon" coils on the 360. Just finished machining the distributor down to a short post just to drive the oil pump. More fun, seems I don't know where or when to stop on this EFI project Will post up some pics when I get a chance.

Mike
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  #54  
Old 10-19-2011, 06:13 PM
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JeepsAndGuns JeepsAndGuns is offline
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55 degrees of advance? How are you getting that with a distributor?

And if your getting ready to install coil per plug ignition, what are you doing about a crankshaft trigger wheel and pickup?
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Future mods: Caddy 500/NV4500/NP205, HP D60 front D60 smooth botom rear, 5.13 gears, 35x12.50's on H1 beadlock wheels. Warn M12000 winch.
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  #55  
Old 10-20-2011, 12:46 AM
myk myk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepsAndGuns
55 degrees of advance? How are you getting that with a distributor?

The dizzy was locked and the phase was set at 32deg btdc, the width of the rotor tip and cap posts allowed for +/-12deg which = +/-24 crank deg, this covered the range of my timing map. The MS2 decides the advance bases on the table above and knows engine position from the crank trigger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepsAndGuns
And if your getting ready to install coil per plug ignition, what are you doing about a crankshaft trigger wheel and pickup?


It's been crank triggered since day one, see the first page of this tread for details. Yes it will be a coil per plug setup firing in wasted spark mode, there are 4 spark outputs from the MS2 each goes to a pair of coils that are fired each revolution of the crank. Cylinders 1/6 are spark A, cyl 8/5 are spark B, cyl 4/7 are spark C and cyl 3/2 are spark D.

Just waiting on the coils to arrive, I've got most everything else done.

Mike

Last edited by myk : 10-20-2011 at 12:52 AM.
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  #56  
Old 10-20-2011, 08:04 AM
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JeepsAndGuns JeepsAndGuns is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myk
The dizzy was locked and the phase was set at 32deg btdc, the width of the rotor tip and cap posts allowed for +/-12deg which = +/-24 crank deg, this covered the range of my timing map. The MS2 decides the advance bases on the table above and knows engine position from the crank trigger.

Guess that MS does things way diffrent than the stock GM systems I am used to. On mine, what the table says it what I get.


Quote:
Originally Posted by myk
It's been crank triggered since day one, see the first page of this tread for details. Yes it will be a coil per plug setup firing in wasted spark mode, there are 4 spark outputs from the MS2 each goes to a pair of coils that are fired each revolution of the crank. Cylinders 1/6 are spark A, cyl 8/5 are spark B, cyl 4/7 are spark C and cyl 3/2 are spark D.

Just waiting on the coils to arrive, I've got most everything else done.

Mike

My bad. I hadnt read the first page since you originally posted it, and I just saw new posts and jumped right to the last page without re reading the rest of the post.

So if doing a wasted spark, why chose the 8 individual coils over a coil pack? For example, the coil pack off of something like a caddy northstar V8. Seems there would be a lot less wiring to do and would be easyer to mount and hook up.
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79 Cherokee Chief 401/T18/D20, MPFI fuel injection, hydroboost, otherwise stock.
Future mods: Caddy 500/NV4500/NP205, HP D60 front D60 smooth botom rear, 5.13 gears, 35x12.50's on H1 beadlock wheels. Warn M12000 winch.
93 Wrangler 4.6 stroker/AX15/NP231,SYE,CV, OME 2.5 lift, front hub conversion/big brakes, 31X10.50's Warn M10000 winch.
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  #57  
Old 10-20-2011, 12:15 PM
myk myk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepsAndGuns
Guess that MS does things way diffrent than the stock GM systems I am used to. On mine, what the table says it what I get.


No it's the same, what the table says is what I get...maybe I missed your original question?? I was just trying to explain how the dizzy can handle that much advance from the ECU.




Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepsAndGuns
So if doing a wasted spark, why chose the 8 individual coils over a coil pack? For example, the coil pack off of something like a caddy northstar V8. Seems there would be a lot less wiring to do and would be easyer to mount and hook up.

The LS2 coils are really slick as they have the ignitors built in so they only require a low level TTL signal from the ECU to trigger them, the wiring is pretty straight forward as the GM coil packs come with a sub-harness and brackets that bolt on the valve covers. They are very powerful coils too and I think they look pretty trick. Ohhh and it's maybe never been done on an AMC engine

Mike
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  #58  
Old 10-24-2011, 11:23 AM
sflier sflier is offline
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Great info and thanks for sharing.

1. Did you end up phasing the distributor so the rotor tip was centered in the middle of a cap post (sorry, I hope that made sense)? If so, how did you end up doing that? Did you run with a hole cut in an old cap to set that up? I was going to try that myself using a timing light but I wasn't sure how'd it work out.

2. If you set your phased timing at 32 BTDC, wouldn't you be cranking with that setting as the base? Or is the base cranking setting different from the initial phase position? I was thinking about setting the base timing to 12 degrees to ease cranking.

Edit: I think I found the answer to my second question here: http://www.diyautotune.com/tech_arti...part2-nova.htm. But I'm curious to know if you phased your rotor tip to the center of a cap post similar to this procedure: http://www.msdignition.com/uploadedF...or_phasing.pdf

Last edited by sflier : 10-24-2011 at 11:37 AM.
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  #59  
Old 10-24-2011, 01:30 PM
myk myk is offline
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Center of the rotor tip was aligned to the center of the cap post with the engine at 32deg btdc, I have timing tape on the balancer. Cranking timing is independent of this and set in the software to whatever you like...mine is 10deg. Please remember that my motor is crank triggered so moving the dizzy has absolutely no effect on the timing, yours may be totally different if your taking the timing signal from the factory VR sensor in the dizzy, which is a very common thing to do.

I have all the LS2 coils now, just fabbing up all the standoffs to weld to the valve covers...a bit of work but this is gonna be sweet

Mike

Last edited by myk : 10-24-2011 at 01:37 PM.
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  #60  
Old 10-24-2011, 02:35 PM
sflier sflier is offline
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Ah, yes I forgot you're setup using crank sensing. I'll be triggered off VR from a MSD distributor, but still managing timing and spark from MS.

Also, just something to consider: If you have a physical spark range of 24 degrees (based on the limits of your rotor tip), and your base offset is 10 degrees, you may want to try centering your rotor tip at 44 degrees (32 where you say it's centered today + 24 / 2). That way, you'd pick up a healthier spark in the normal operating range. Unless, of course, you've already taken that into account when you selected 32 initially.

Last edited by sflier : 10-24-2011 at 02:53 PM.
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