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  #1  
Old 12-07-2010, 12:11 AM
mjragona mjragona is offline
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Is the fuel injection conversion worth it?

is the fuel injection conversion for the 360 v8 worth it i have an 88 grand wagoneer and was thinking bout converting it but wasnt shur if it really wothr it any words from the wise could use the help anyone

Last edited by PlasticBoob : 03-01-2011 at 04:35 PM.
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  #2  
Old 12-07-2010, 02:37 AM
Joe Guilbeau Joe Guilbeau is offline
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A used Holley Pro-Jection system such as the 502-2 with either the Analog or Digital Electronic Control Unit would be a good choice.

I have been running one for the past 16 years without any problems.

1. You MUST have a good electrical system or it will not work. This means a good alternator like a CS-130 due to its superior regulaton.

2. You MUST have a good grounding system, to the block from the battery and from the block to the chassis. I go from the battery to the AC top bolt and from the AC Top Bolt to the Radiator Mount bolt.

3. You MUST use relays to power up two electronic fuel pumps, I choose a Holley 802 Blue mounted at the frame crossmember just in front of the spare tire carrier.

3a. The second electronic fuel pump is mounted on the left fender well, the reason for two pumps is that the supplied pumps that come with the OEM shipped Pro-Jection get overwhelmed pumping. The 802 Blue pump primes the engine bay mounted pump.

3b. It is simple to troubleshoot fuel delivery problems now, you can hear both pumps run, as they prime for 3 seconds or so when you turn the key to the ON but not Start position. Secondly, they provide back-up in case one fails, the likely hood that both will fail in the same day is extremely remote, so you can always limp home simply by bypassing the failed pump and you are on the road (even 200 miles from the nearest road) in 15 minutes or less.

4. You have to supply a return line to the gas tank, this line must not see a pressure of over 2 psi.

5. The analog is easire to tune than the Electronic, needing only an adjustment of the throttle position sensor (do this by hand as someone attempts to start the vehicle, just move it 3/8ths of an inch up or down until the vehicle starts and runs, by cracking the throttle plate 1/8th inch open. Run the vehicle until it gets warm, and put all of the knobs at center position. Adjust until you have a high idle with the Throttle Position Sensor, and go in the cab and adjust the Idle potentiometer to see if it raises and lowers the idle. You are looking for a baseline of idle where the vehicle will start and run. From here it is a matter of adjusting the Mid-range potentiometer until the idle of the vehicle tops out and begins to drop again. Adjust for highest rpm's, then back off a bit.

6. Now adjust the fuel pressure at the throttle body fuel pressure regulator to somewher between 11-13PSI, initial startup would be 12PSI.

Carry a spare Throttle Position Sensor at all times, these fail with daily driving about once every 2 years or so, or if they get wet.

Buy a used on, get a spare ECU and TPS and you will be set.
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  #3  
Old 12-07-2010, 07:04 AM
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crispyboy crispyboy is offline
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I would cast a vote for a Howell system or other GM throttle body system. I have had one in my truck for approx. 8 years. Had one throttle position sensor go out - otherwise trouble free - dependable.
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  #4  
Old 12-07-2010, 07:40 AM
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jaber jaber is offline
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I have been running a GM conversion for over 7 years, on the same engine.
The engine is in its second GW, and just last week I had to swap out the fuel pump. This is the wifes DD and has run like a top since I put it onto the fresh rebuild.

The driveability is great and cold starts are a thing of the past for her...
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  #5  
Old 12-07-2010, 10:52 AM
FSJ Guy FSJ Guy is offline
 
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See my sig link for info on putting a GM TBI system in an FSJ. There is a link there for Binder Planet's TBI info, too. The TBI forum moderator, Bill, has a GREAT FAQ which you should read about 10 times. Seriously.

I will disagree about needing an upgraded alternator. The ECM and related components don't use up THAT much energy. But it certainly wouldn't hurt things.

There are folks who are quite happy using the OEM Jeep gas tank, but I swapped in a Chevy S10 tank (details in sig link) with an in-tank fuel pump and couldn't be happier.

DO NOT SWAP TO TBI if you think you will get better gas mileage.

Install TBI to get better drivability (cold starts, altitude changes, off-camber driving, etc). If you get better gas mileage, it was probably because your existing carb wasn't adjusted correctly.

There are several turnkey solutions and of course the DIY junkyard solution. See my sig link to find out which one I like best.
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  #6  
Old 12-07-2010, 11:42 AM
Joe Guilbeau Joe Guilbeau is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FSJ Guy
I will disagree about needing an upgraded alternator. The ECM and related components don't use up THAT much energy. But it certainly wouldn't hurt things.

Perhaps you had better results with your Holley Analog Pro-Jection installation?

I will qualify my post with saying that the regulation of the voltage is the critical issue and not the amps, although with two electronic fuel pumps the extra amps (as you mention) come in handy.

The Holley Pro-Jection analog system was designed by MSD for Holley and it has taken a lot of abuse due mainly to the fact that Holley went out of house to have the design engineered by an outside source.

With no in-house engineering on the project, they were unable to grasp the fine details of the installation and Tech Support was just not aware of some of the issues. This was understandable, and the Analog system quickly garnered a bad reputation.

I have had 16 years of experience with this system and there are better systems out there; however for about $300 to $400 dollars, you can get a used Holley Pro-Jection Analog complete system, so it is a cost vs. performance hands down winner.

By the way, for those of you out there with MSD 6A ignitions, the MSD manuals clearly states to not use the the MSD 6A as a Tach Output source, they have a Tach Adapter for that, using that Tach Adapter will get you where you want to be. It is all in the details.
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Joe Guilbeau<br />1983 Cherokee Laredo WT (SJ-17), 360/229/727/D44/D60 4.10 Gearing, 8-lug hubs, Edelbrock Performer w/EGR Intake, Mallory Unilite Series 47 Photo-Optic Infrared Trigger Vacuum Distributor, Mallory Surge Protector, Mallory Promaster Coil, Holley Pro-Jection TBI 502-Analog, FlowKooler High Output Water Pump, Staggered 4-Core Custom Industrial Radiator, HD Fan Clutch, Dual Electric Fans, CS130 Delco 105-Amp Alternator, Oil Bypass Mods at Rear of Block and Distributor Oiling, Superlift 4\" Suspension, Rancho RS5000\'s, Hi-Tech 31\" Re-Treads, Aero 33 Gal Tank w/Skid Plate, Custom Rear \"Longhorn\" Bumper

Last edited by Joe Guilbeau : 12-07-2010 at 12:00 PM.
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  #7  
Old 12-07-2010, 12:04 PM
FSJ Guy FSJ Guy is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Guilbeau
Perhaps you had better results with your Holley Analog Pro-Jection installation?

Ha ha!

That's funny. I first tried a Holley analog system and gave up on it. It was either due to problems with the system or user error, I couldn't tell you which. I still have two old control boxes and a wiring harness somewhere in the garage...

The GM system has a way of compensating for different voltage. I don't know about the Holley system.

I confess that I didn't originally see that you were referring to the Holley system when talking about alternator importance.
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  #8  
Old 12-07-2010, 12:29 PM
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Billygoat Billygoat is offline
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I have the Howell system and like it, I was the first (and maybe still the only) to have them add ignition control to there stock V8 kit, the dizzy mods are very easy, it is costly, if I decide to go TBI on Gonzo I will do DIY.
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  #9  
Old 12-07-2010, 02:24 PM
Joe Guilbeau Joe Guilbeau is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FSJ Guy
Ha ha!

That's funny. I first tried a Holley analog system and gave up on it. It was either due to problems with the system or user error, I couldn't tell you which. I still have two old control boxes and a wiring harness somewhere in the garage...

I will be more than happy to give you all the assistance in the world if you ever want to install those units on a vehicle...trust me on this, I know the system pretty well.

And I have a guy that may be interested in the Analog ECUs if you ever want to sell them.

Block Diagram of the Holley Pro-Jection Analog 502 Series Throttle Body Injection and ECU

http://patimg2.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=05012780&SectionNum=2&IDKey=9FF261FBF5C 6&HomeUrl=http://patft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1%2526Sect2=HITOFF%2526d=PALL%2526 p=1%2526u=%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25252Fsrchnum. htm%2526r=1%2526f=G%2526l=50%2526s1=5012780.PN.%25 26OS=PN/5012780%2526RS=PN/5012780

Throttle Body itself
http://patimg2.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=05012780&PageNum=3&IDKey=9FF261FBF5C6&H omeUrl=http://patft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1%2526Sect2=HITOFF%2526d=PALL%2526 p=1%2526u=%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25252Fsrchnum. htm%2526r=1%2526f=G%2526l=50%2526s1=5012780.PN.%25 26OS=PN/5012780%2526RS=PN/5012780

Side View of Throttle Body
http://patimg2.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=05012780&PageNum=4&IDKey=9FF261FBF5C6&H omeUrl=http://patft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1%2526Sect2=HITOFF%2526d=PALL%2526 p=1%2526u=%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25252Fsrchnum. htm%2526r=1%2526f=G%2526l=50%2526s1=5012780.PN.%25 26OS=PN/5012780%2526RS=PN/5012780

Block Diagram of the Analog ECU
http://patimg2.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=05012780&PageNum=6&IDKey=9FF261FBF5C6&H omeUrl=http://patft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1%2526Sect2=HITOFF%2526d=PALL%2526 p=1%2526u=%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25252Fsrchnum. htm%2526r=1%2526f=G%2526l=50%2526s1=5012780.PN.%25 26OS=PN/5012780%2526RS=PN/5012780

Schematic Diagram of the ECU with Closed Loop Oxygen Sensor
http://patimg2.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=05261382&PageNum=7&IDKey=7134A688C47C&H omeUrl=http://patft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1%2526Sect2=HITOFF%2526d=PALL%2526 p=1%2526u=%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25252Fsrchnum. htm%2526r=1%2526f=G%2526l=50%2526s1=5261382.PN.%25 26OS=PN/5261382%2526RS=PN/5261382
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Last edited by Joe Guilbeau : 12-07-2010 at 06:12 PM.
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  #10  
Old 05-17-2011, 11:07 PM
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hillbillyhans hillbillyhans is offline
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My friend just put the edlebrock EFI on his '69 Land Cruiser, and it is sweet! For the money, I will put this unit on my rig.
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  #11  
Old 05-18-2011, 12:00 AM
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ThisGuyUKnow ThisGuyUKnow is offline
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I cant speak for TBI set ups but i did a junkyard MPI on my 258 and I will never look back. Currently trying to make an MPI set up for my 360.
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  #12  
Old 05-18-2011, 02:59 PM
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mdill mdill is offline
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Pretty much agree with you for the most part, I think Joe's point, and one I would agree with is the CS-130/144 do have better regulation and control the alt-dump high voltage spike's that SI produce when a high load turns on/off, so while the stock SI can handle the extra load fine (depending on the use model i.e. no extended low RPM lights/heater ... use) the CS series is a better choice for the electronics for transient voltage control. (less chance of a spike taking out the ECU)

Mike D.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FSJ Guy
See my sig link for info on putting a GM TBI system in an FSJ. There is a link there for Binder Planet's TBI info, too. The TBI forum moderator, Bill, has a GREAT FAQ which you should read about 10 times. Seriously.

I will disagree about needing an upgraded alternator. The ECM and related components don't use up THAT much energy. But it certainly wouldn't hurt things.

There are folks who are quite happy using the OEM Jeep gas tank, but I swapped in a Chevy S10 tank (details in sig link) with an in-tank fuel pump and couldn't be happier.

DO NOT SWAP TO TBI if you think you will get better gas mileage.

Install TBI to get better drivability (cold starts, altitude changes, off-camber driving, etc). If you get better gas mileage, it was probably because your existing carb wasn't adjusted correctly.

There are several turnkey solutions and of course the DIY junkyard solution. See my sig link to find out which one I like best.
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Last edited by mdill : 05-18-2011 at 03:17 PM.
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  #13  
Old 05-18-2011, 03:08 PM
Blake Blake is offline
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I say no, it's not worth it.

Back in the day, I built/installed several kinds of FI for several kinds of V8's (chevy, amc, IH) and they all worked ok. Just "OK".

IMHO FI won't perform any better on an old V8 than a WELL tuned carb.

I am saying this from experience and my use cases (I 'wheel, and I 'wheel A LOT). My DD is a factory FI Landcruiser.

FI is cool for those who enjoy tinkering around with their engines.
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Old 05-18-2011, 03:16 PM
Blake Blake is offline
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oh - I'm not knocking FI at all.

Just saying that it's not worth it In My Humble Opinion. As SR sys admin, I am all about technology, but not when I'm in the middle of nowhere and lose an 'unnecessary' electrical component.
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Old 05-18-2011, 03:20 PM
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mdill mdill is offline
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I would go just the opposit, and say having a Carb is OK for those that like "tinkering around" , a good EFI (GM setup anyway) will stay tuned much longer (maybe not better) than a Carb setup can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake
I say no, it's not worth it.

Back in the day, I built/installed several kinds of FI for several kinds of V8's (chevy, amc, IH) and they all worked ok. Just "OK".

IMHO FI won't perform any better on an old V8 than a WELL tuned carb.

I am saying this from experience and my use cases (I 'wheel, and I 'wheel A LOT). My DD is a factory FI Landcruiser.

FI is cool for those who enjoy tinkering around with their engines.
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1977 J-10 Honcho 360-T15-D20
1977 Cherokee WT 360-Th400-NP241 true-trac(s)
1979 Cherokee 4 Door 258-T-18-D20
1981 Cherokee Chief WT 360-727-NP208
1972 K20 Suburban 350 SM465 205
And the other stuff that gets driven
----------------------------------------
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  #16  
Old 05-18-2011, 03:50 PM
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PlasticBoob PlasticBoob is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake
oh - I'm not knocking FI at all.

Just saying that it's not worth it In My Humble Opinion. As SR sys admin, I am all about technology, but not when I'm in the middle of nowhere and lose an 'unnecessary' electrical component.

LOL, sorry, I just had to laugh out loud at that. Some of us don't live our lives so completely in fear of that extremely rare breakdown that will happen out in the middle of nowhere that it stops us from going with a system that is proven to make more power under a wider variety of conditions than a carb. If you're breaking down every time you take your truck out, there's some serious problems there. EFI, if implemented correctly, is much more reliable than a carb, and I'd put my money on the rest of the car failing before my TBI does. Of course it's good to plan for stuff like that, but basing your whole vehicular life around a rare chance that something is going to go wrong with EFI just sounds ridiculous to me. And if you say that a carb can drive through a lake without fear of frying, you'd also better be running a points distributor, because anything other than that will also get fried, unless you waterproof it (yes, I know points throw a fit any time there's moisture around, but you can replace them and fiddle with them on the trail). And if you can waterproof your electronic ignition, you can darn-well waterproof your entire EFI system too.

Of course, I'm rarely out in the middle of nowhere without at least one other vehicle with me, so it doesn't matter WHAT I run. Life is for the living - I guess EFI is an extreme sport! Just kidding. Just my opinion of course.

I'm with MDill and the others on this - once tailored for an engine, EFI needs no tinkering. If you buy a kit, you're already miles ahead of us do-it-yourselfers AND especially the carb guys. Us tinkerers are going to tinker no matter what system we use, that's why I bought a Holley Truck Avenger many moons ago. I'm sorry to say that TBI still kicks its butt in every possible way, and I haven't even implemented timing control yet!

Think of us EFI guys next time you're cranking and cranking your engine because of carb troubles.
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  #17  
Old 05-18-2011, 04:04 PM
Blake Blake is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasticBoob

Think of us EFI guys next time you're cranking and cranking your engine because of carb troubles.


LOL
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  #18  
Old 05-18-2011, 04:08 PM
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PlasticBoob PlasticBoob is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake
LOL

BTW, I wasn't ranting at you personally so much as I was ranting at the people in general who say stuff like that.
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  #19  
Old 05-18-2011, 04:13 PM
Blake Blake is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasticBoob
BTW, I wasn't ranting at you personally so much as I was ranting at the people in general who say stuff like that.

It's all good.

I used to be pro EFI too. I still am pro EFI for new cars (heaven forbid a new car that came with a carb).

But for my use (extreme wheeling) my old holley TA works perfect, has very little that can fail, and wasn't that much $$$.
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Old 05-18-2011, 04:58 PM
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PlasticBoob PlasticBoob is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake
But for my use (extreme wheeling) my old holley TA works perfect, has very little that can fail, and wasn't that much $$$.

Didn't know you were into extreme wheeling, hard to argue with that!
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