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  #1  
Old 11-26-2018, 06:29 PM
kilroy26 kilroy26 is offline
230 Tornado
 
Join Date: Apr 11, 2016
Location: Baltimore
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83 Wagoneer Tow rig

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ND...s42m9G347yg2h0
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Oz...azcSfPabj7CF5c


Evening everyone,
Im looking to use my 83 Wagoneer to tow a setup similar to what is pictured. The only difference is that I will be hauling a Javelin instead of an AMX. The Wagon currently has a 360, 727 and 229 with 3.31 gears. What concerns me is having to towing over the mountains to head to any events west of Maryland. I'm open to suggestions or thoughts as to how to best utilize it as it is.
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  #2  
Old 11-26-2018, 08:12 PM
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scout4bta scout4bta is offline
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Location: SE Arizona
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From a quick search I believe your GVWR is about 6200 lbs with 3.31 gears, your Javelin and trailer will put you way over that limit. Legally you put yourself at risk if your involved in a accident, regardless of what happened it would be your fault.

You would be over taxing your transmission, the engine cooling system, brakes etc, towing that weight.
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Found, the perfect Wagoneer to Dieselize, 1989 GW 360, 727, NP208
1980 IH Scout/4BTA/NV4500/Atlas 4.3/DYNO:172(HP),432(ft-lbs)25mpg

Last edited by scout4bta : 11-26-2018 at 08:37 PM.
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  #3  
Old 11-26-2018, 08:32 PM
joe joe is offline
 
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Location: PNWet, USA
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Regardless of what AMC's marketing dept says. 3.31's ARE NOT TOW GEARS. Ok for hauling a golf cart to the country club if you live in Flatistan, FL.
For hauling a 6000lb car trailer? Regear the axles or forget it.
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  #4  
Old 11-27-2018, 01:40 AM
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FSJunkie FSJunkie is offline
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3.31 was the standard axle ratio in 1972. 3.73 was the optional ratio highly recomended for towing.

Gearing is all the difference in the world. Let me put it this way:

Low gearing (2.73) with a trailer: 70+ MPH downhill, 55 MPH on a level, 30 MPH uphill. Floored the whole time. Probably overheating.

High gearing (4.09) with a trailer: 65 MPH downhill, 65 MPH on a level, 65 MPH uphill. Only floored on the uphill. Not overheating.

A low power engine can tow a heavy trailer just fine if you gear it high enough. It won't do it fast, in fact it never does anything fast, but it'll do it under all conditions. That's better than being geared too low because then it's fast when unloaded but slow as all heck when loaded.


I once towed a trailer of over 7000 pounds with my Wagoneer using 3.31 gearing. I only went 7 miles.
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  #5  
Old 11-27-2018, 08:16 AM
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scout4bta scout4bta is offline
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How often are you going to tow this weight combo? If it's a one time occurrence just go slow and watch your temp gauge.
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Found, the perfect Wagoneer to Dieselize, 1989 GW 360, 727, NP208
1980 IH Scout/4BTA/NV4500/Atlas 4.3/DYNO:172(HP),432(ft-lbs)25mpg
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  #6  
Old 11-27-2018, 08:40 AM
kilroy26 kilroy26 is offline
230 Tornado
 
Join Date: Apr 11, 2016
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 6
I definitely am in agreement with you guys in regards to gearing. From what I can tell it came with the factory towing package which was 3.31 gears, an aux transmission cooler and a factory class 3 hitch.

While I know gears will make a big difference I'm just not sure if it will be enough to make it a reliable enough set up for what I'm trying to get it do, if it will even do it safely.
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  #7  
Old 11-27-2018, 09:19 AM
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Towtruck Towtruck is offline
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Join Date: Oct 11, 2001
Location: Arlington, Texas
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I towed a Javelin and other similarly sized vehicles long distance in the Texas flatlands for years. Burned up the 727 in fairly short order. Swapped in a T18 and an RV cam. Still wasn't great but it always got the job done. Gear spacing in the T18 is awful, but it was sturdy enough to take the abuse. Large diameter rear tires didn't help. Converted to rear disk brakes after a scary incident with uneven drum application in the rain. Short wheelbase on the J10 isn't the best, but it was adequate.

I'm currently planning a conversion to a more suitable five (maybe six)speed for better gear combinations and will definitely change the 3.31 to 3.73 if I buy another car trailer. It might be helpful to look at an on line rpm/speed/tire size/gear ratio converter to understand where the engine is running under cruise. (Torque/power curves). An RV cam does help.
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  #8  
Old 11-27-2018, 10:09 AM
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letank letank is offline
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The biggest issue, it that our brakes do not measure to the need of such comb.

I towed a waggy with a the 85 and 3.31 once... with a tow dolly. There is very little pick up, it was a winter month with snow flurries in the sierras foothill. I had to stop to cool the trans as the heat was cooking my feet.



For towing, diesel rules...

One of the wheel strap started to loosen up and the waggy was on its way off the dolly, so a come along is a good back system, and extra straps.
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74 wag, 349Kmiles on original ticker/trany, except for the rust. Will it make it to the next get together without a rebuilt? Status: needs a new body.
85 Gwag, 226 Kmiles. $250 FSJ test lab since 02, that refuses to give up but still leaks.

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  #9  
Old 11-27-2018, 01:42 PM
kilroy26 kilroy26 is offline
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Join Date: Apr 11, 2016
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by scout4bta
How often are you going to tow this weight combo? If it's a one time occurrence just go slow and watch your temp gauge.
It's only something I see myself doing very rarely, mainly to events like the Kenosha show they have every few years or to the yearly National AMC show if it is relatively close by.
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  #10  
Old 11-27-2018, 06:40 PM
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rang-a-stang rang-a-stang is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scout4bta
From a quick search I believe your GVWR is about 6200 lbs with 3.31 gears, your Javelin and trailer will put you way over that limit. Legally you put yourself at risk if your involved in a accident, regardless of what happened it would be your fault.
This.

Know you are putting yourself at huge risk. I am with some of the other guys; if it's a "get it home" thing, I personally, would assume the risk and do it (like scout4bta said, go slow, watch your temps).
If it's a couple times a year thing, I would re-think the tow vehicle. All you need is one good breeze that blows your trailer a little to one side, it starts swaying a little, and you slightly brush a new Escalade full of kids in the lane next to you. Then you get sued for all their medical bills and the replacement of the Escalade.
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  #11  
Old 11-28-2018, 03:13 AM
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FSJunkie FSJunkie is offline
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The topic of Wagoneer brakes makes me laugh. At least most of you guys have power front disk brakes. My Wagoneer has manual 11"x2" drums at all four wheels.

Let's just say I rely heavily on my trailers having extremely good brakes and know I'm screwed if the trailer brakes don't work. I have a very good electric brake controller installed in my Jeep using very hefty wire to supply a lot of current to the trailer brakes.

The flat bed trailer only had one pair of small brakes on one axle when I towed that Durango. A traffic light changed ahead of me quickly when I was rolling 45 MPH and I rapidly discovered that I didn't have the electric brake controller turned on. I hauled over 12,000 pounds of Jeep, Durango, and trailer to a stop with four 11"x2" manual drum brakes in all of maybe 300 feet. I nearly jackknifed and rolled.


Usually I just tow my 4500 pound camper. It has really good brakes. I can bring it to a stop really easily.
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I love how arguements end as soon as Ristow comments. Ristow is right...again.
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  #12  
Old 11-28-2018, 08:05 AM
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scout4bta scout4bta is offline
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At minimum add a trans temp gauge. Put it in the test port, passenger side of the trans near the front of the pan. That is from memory and so don't hold me to it. Try to keep the trans oil temp under 225℉.
"The effect (of high temp) is also cumulative. Short term exposure to high heat levels (or even prolonged exposure to moderate heat) can break down the oil to the point where even very short episodes of overheating will lead to failure." from the txchange.com
Your'll need a weight distribution hitch for safety and to keep you wagon from dragging it's tail.
__________________
Found, the perfect Wagoneer to Dieselize, 1989 GW 360, 727, NP208
1980 IH Scout/4BTA/NV4500/Atlas 4.3/DYNO:172(HP),432(ft-lbs)25mpg

Last edited by scout4bta : 11-28-2018 at 08:25 AM.
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  #13  
Old 11-28-2018, 01:19 PM
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letank letank is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FSJunkie
Let's just say I rely heavily on my trailers having extremely good brakes and know I'm screwed if the trailer brakes don't work. I have a very good electric brake controller installed in my Jeep using very hefty wire to supply a lot of current to the trailer brakes.



Forgot about the trailer brakes, so it is a possibility.

As for the trans temp, I would bypass the radiator part of it and connect the trans line directly to the external trans radiator.

As for trans temp check this post

http://www.fsjnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7473

on page 3 there is an exerpt from the GM trans manual about oil temp and its lifetime
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Michel
74 wag, 349Kmiles on original ticker/trany, except for the rust. Will it make it to the next get together without a rebuilt? Status: needs a new body.
85 Gwag, 226 Kmiles. $250 FSJ test lab since 02, that refuses to give up but still leaks.

See Ouray 2013, Engine bits and Fuel and brake lines, and Body work
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  #14  
Old 11-28-2018, 03:36 PM
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babywag babywag is offline
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Can it be done? yes.
Will it be reliable? Nobody can tell you this, kinda depends on mech. condition of your jeep.
Will it be an enjoyable trip, No!
Think sloooow speeds, single digits mileage and lotsa fuel.
Coupled with having to be beyond watchful for stupid drivers.
You know the ones that just have to get in front of you then jam on brakes, or turn right in front of you because they don't want to be behind someone towing.

Yes! on excellent trailer brakes & controller PLUS weight distributing hitch setup.
The short wheelbase makes these awful tow rigs.

I have towed things way over what's sensible/safe and gotten away with it.
I'd never do it now, liability just too high.
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  #15  
Old 11-29-2018, 01:28 AM
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FSJunkie FSJunkie is offline
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Location: Not The Hot Part, Arizona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babywag

Yes! on excellent trailer brakes & controller PLUS weight distributing hitch setup.
The short wheelbase makes these awful tow rigs.

I cannot recomend an equalizer hitch with sway control and electric trailer brakes with an automatic inertial controller enough. That goes for towing with any vehicle.
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'72 Jeep Wagoneer Custom, 360 V8

I love how arguements end as soon as Ristow comments. Ristow is right...again.
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  #16  
Old 12-01-2018, 09:51 AM
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scout4bta scout4bta is offline
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One item I forgot is if you put a trans oil cooler on (you should) you also need a inline thermostat for the oil cooler, too cold is just as bad as too hot.
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Found, the perfect Wagoneer to Dieselize, 1989 GW 360, 727, NP208
1980 IH Scout/4BTA/NV4500/Atlas 4.3/DYNO:172(HP),432(ft-lbs)25mpg
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