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  #1  
Old 12-29-2017, 11:33 AM
NBD925 NBD925 is offline
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1978 Jeep J10 Dana 20 To 18 Swap

Hello I have this Jeep:

1978 J10
258
T15 Trans
Dana 20
Dana 44 Front and Rear

I would like to Swap in a Large Hole Dana 18 so I can use an Overdrive. Here is my plan and my reason:

I need to rebuild both front and rear axles with New carriers + gears, bearings, seals what have you. T-15 Trans Rebuild and the Transfer case needs Tera Low gears, new intermediate shaft and bearings. So Given these upgrades and rebuilds, I thought why not put what you want in the Jeep and get an overdrive. To do that you need to have a Dana 18.

I understand that by swapping the Dana 20 for a Dana 18, The Rear driveline will be offset and not centered (like the current Dana 20 and Dana 44 Axle). I am fully rebuilding the rear axle (gears, bearings, seals, brakes . . . ) so why not prebuild an offest Rear Dana 44 and drop it in when ready? Same Idea with the Dana 18 (All new Tera low gears, bearings, seals and shafts) just prebuild outside the truck and drop it in with the rebuilt rear axle.

My questions:
I need a rebuildable Dana 44 offest Rear Axle
It needs to have 6 lug axle shafts for my custom wheels

Is this a rare axle to find (offest 44 with 6 lugs)?

What am I missing with this conversion?

Do they make 6 lug axles for offset 44’s

Will my rear driveline be the same length?

Am I missing anything critical to make this happen?

Will I be able to keep my single stick Transfer Case shifter for the Dana 18 or we’re all Dana 18’s twin stick? I know how bad ass twin sticks are but I do not want that many sticks in the cab. I would really like to keep the low profile (J or U pattern) single shift stick like my current Dana 20 has.
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Old 12-29-2017, 01:09 PM
NBD925 NBD925 is offline
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Update: I called Herm the Overdrive Guy and one of his techs answered a few questions.

The offest Dana 44 Axle housing and axles with 6 lugs can be found on a Jeep with Quarda-Trac. I guess I should be looking for a J10 with an automatic to be the doner for the rear Dana 44.

Any other options for doner rigs anyone can think of?

Next question was the shingle shift stick.

The Dana 18 Single shift can not be had in a “U” pattern like the Dana 20 because of the shift rail designs of the Dana 18. The Dana 18 single stick will not match up with the existing Dana 20 floor hole unless you modify the shifter linkage. That modification can be done by welding a bracket to possition your Dana 18 stick in the spot you want and running a rod back to the stock Dana 18 linkage.

Does anyone know the difference in length from the Dana 20 Single stick to the Dana 18 single stick?

One question I had that came up was:

Will the Dana 18 hold up to highway speeds especially when I put this overdrive on? I would like to drive about 75 MPH with this setup:

258, T-15, Dana 18 overdrive, Dana 44’s with 3.92 gears and 32 inch tires

The Dana 20 Transfer Case is a straight through design to the rear driveline when 2 Wheel high is selected. There is very little load placed on the intermediate shaft and its bearings making it better for highway speeds and noise. The Dana 18 has an offest Rear driveline when in 2 Wheel high and places more stress or load on the intermediate shaft and the needle bearings/washers because power must cross the gear set all the way to the other side of the transfer case. The Dana 18 original intermediate shaft has a washer and needle bearing setup and this is a weak link in the system. But if you do the intermediate shaft tapper bearing upgrade that’s available, it makes this weak link allot stronger and allot quieter. Both Dana 18 and 20 have a option for this intermediate shaft tapper bearing upgrade.

Thoughts on this? Will the Dana 18 hold up to that kind of prolonged highway speed?
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  #3  
Old 12-29-2017, 02:16 PM
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airman airman is offline
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I would look at the Novak-Adapt 5 speed trans and keeping your model 20 tranfer case.
AX15 or NV3550 transmissions

www.novak-adapt.com


The model 18 TC will be noise because of the straight cut gears.


Andrew
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  #4  
Old 12-29-2017, 09:15 PM
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J20 project J20 project is offline
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Boy, what Airman said....NOISY. I guess if I were you, I would punt the Dana 44 rear axle idea and jump right into a Dana 60 rear. Convert your front Dana 44 to 8 lug and done.
A late 70's Q track Dana 60 and Spicer 20 Dana 60 axle have the same offset.

Choosing a wag axle is silly, too narrow.

No offset on your current axle? if it has some offset...just use it.

If you do install a rear OD...I would think you could plan on the rear driveshaft having to be shortened.

If you do install a Spicer18, what do you plan to do w/ your cv shaft on the front? I don't think any of the Spicer 18s' ran one so a cv yoke might be hard to find. Maybe not impossible though. I would kinda like the challenge.

Still not sure I understand the desire here, too many downsides w/ a noisy, constantly wearing most of the internals type tcase.

As mentioned,,,since you have to change about everything behind the engine...NV3500 or 4500 to me.

One last thing, what are you going to do when you figure out you no longer have the 15% of HP and torque curve you used to have? Much like putting a 15% taller tire on the rig and wondering why you are in 4th gear to climb that hill?

J20

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  #5  
Old 12-29-2017, 09:16 PM
NBD925 NBD925 is offline
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I just looked into the 5 speed transmissions like the AX15 and it looks like a cool but intimidating swap. Lots of adaptors and fab work. I priced out most of the parts on Novak and it looks like it would cost about $3000.

I like the idea but here are the things that scare me. Where will the shifters end up in the cab compared to where they are now with my T15 and Dana 20? I’ll have to fill in old floor holes for the shifters and make new cutouts. Also get new floor vinyl.

I just got new drive lines front and rear and they will most likely need to be changed, shorten rear maybe lengthen the front.

Clutch pedal linkage, I’m not sure but this would possibly need to be changed.

Has anyone done this 5 speed swap in there FSJ?

Last edited by NBD925 : 12-29-2017 at 09:32 PM.
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  #6  
Old 12-29-2017, 09:31 PM
NBD925 NBD925 is offline
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J20: The dana 18 Overdrives fit in the PTO so no difference in either the front or rear driveline lengths. I could use the current Centered Dana 44 with a modified rear driveline that has a C.V. joint added to the transfer case end. I just don’t like that idea because I have the opertunity to swap in the correct axle if I choose. I don’t want to swap in a Dana 60. Also don’t want to do the 8 lug because my custom rims. I had 16 inch custom rims made with 6 lug so I could get better tire options.

Choosing a Quarda-trac axle out of a J-10 would be a drop in I think, I didn’t know the wagons were narrower so I guess that takes the wagons off the donor list.

Can you explain the 15% HP and Torque question? Is swapping to the Dana 18 going to drop those values?

I guess part of that 15% is the reason for my Axle rebuilds. Right now I have a 32 inch tire and 3.54 gears in the truck. I am going to be rebuilding the axles regardless of this potential swap with new 3.92 gears to get my power back.
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Old 12-29-2017, 10:10 PM
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I guess first, an OD trans, or OD in general is undergearing, correct? Instead of 1:1, meaning 1 turn of the engine or one revolution is normally one revolution of the driveshaft. Now, compared to say 2.5:1 ratio in a lower gear(say 3rd on a 4spd.) it will be under geared or under 1:1. So a lot of OD transmissions out there will be undergeared from 5-15%. Like .95:1 or up to .85:1.

The net, net effect is very similar to putting larger tires onto the same gear ration. Lower numerically, hence your desire to deepen(higher numerically).

So if you drop ratio in the OD and gain it back in the axle gearing, what have you gained? You will still not have lowered your rpm.

Last piece of this, not to down talk your 258, but I always found it lacking on the highway as compared to in the dirt. I had a friend lose ratio w/ his tires, dropping his rpm at highway speeds that the 6 could not keep up. It was outside of its' ideal power range and camshaft capability. He ended up dropping gears on long hills and in the wind, etc, etc. Had to go deeper in the gears to get his rpm back up into a range that he was making power.

So the last question is why the overdrive? rpm drop? efficiency?

Lotsa money and time to end up in the same place, right?

J20
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Old 12-29-2017, 10:13 PM
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Also, is your rear Dana 44 truly centered?,,,like I said, there was no difference in the QT Dana 60's vs Spicer 20 60's from the same time period. They were both offset to the right the same amount. Had them side by side on the floor of my garage twice.

J20
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  #9  
Old 12-29-2017, 11:29 PM
NBD925 NBD925 is offline
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I guess the idea of the overdrive is to get back to the same performance I have now on the highway while gaining lower gears and double the gear options. I have 32 inch tires and 3.54 gears now. I can get to about 80 MPH on flats. I think if I go to the planned 3.92 gears with the same 32 inch tires, adding the over drive will get me back to 75 or 80 MPH. These over drives can be had in a 25% or 30% rpm reduction.

The other appealing things an overdrive adds are, I get 6 possible gears in High and 6 possible gears in Low. They are all synced to include the overdrive gear. The reason this overdrive option is viable to me is because I am also rebuilding the Transfer case and the axles no matter what happens. So the only extra money spent is on the overdrive itself, a used axle and a used Dana 18. I just figured while those are being completely rebuilt no matter what why not build them into this possible Overdrive option.

It looks like the real problem is the Dana 18. I guess, I didn’t realize it was so noisy in 2 Wheel High? Other than that it looks like everything is an easy swap and I can get the single stick Dana 18 shifter in the same hole the Dana 20 shifter is in now.

I think allot of the noise of the Dana 18 comes from the intermediate shaft so the new intermediate shaft tapper bearing upgrade should take care of allot of this noise problem, is that right?

Last edited by NBD925 : 12-29-2017 at 11:35 PM.
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  #10  
Old 12-30-2017, 10:12 AM
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TPICherokee TPICherokee is offline
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The J10 used the same rear axle with the Quadra-trac as it did with the Dana 20. You won't need to change your rear axle.
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Old 12-30-2017, 10:44 AM
SJTD SJTD is offline
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I don't see taper bearings helping the noise.

The noise is from running through the gears constantly, especially if they are indeed spur gears rather than helical.

The advantage of taper bearings is better axial load capability but spur gears don't put an axial load on the shaft so what's the point?
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  #12  
Old 12-30-2017, 10:58 AM
NBD925 NBD925 is offline
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The Dana 18 has helical gears in high and spur gears in low as far as I can tell. Just look up a picture of Dana 18 gears on google. Novak has a great picture of both a Dana 18 and a Dana 20 opened up.

The intermediate shaft bearing upgrade is apparently a big deal in reliability, strength and noise. I agree your going to have the noise from going through the extra gears but the bearing upgrade apparently helps quiet it some and adds the other benefits.

Anyone who has installed one can you chime in?

Last edited by NBD925 : 12-30-2017 at 11:05 AM.
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  #13  
Old 12-30-2017, 11:36 AM
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tgreese tgreese is offline
 
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The D18 is noisy mostly because the intermediate gear is always driven. The 18 was a good solution for the MB/GPW but it wears out fast and as mentioned it's noisy. The tapered bearing intermediate shaft mostly addresses the durability issues with the constantly driven intermediate shaft. AFAIK it does not change the noise level much if at all. If you want to discuss this more in depth, join and post on earlyCJ5.com - it's a friendly forum and they would be happy to discuss the attributes of the D18 and their extensive first-hand experience with you.

Note than the Dana 20 was marketed, when new, as the "silent" transfer case. That said, geared units (like the D20) are noisier than chain driven, and manufacturers eventually abandoned gear driven transfer cases in favor of chain drive.

Also realize that obtaining a Warn/Saturn overdrive will cost as much as you would spend on the AX15 or NV3550, I would think. Not sure how you get the $3000 number -
The AX15 bolts up to a 258. You would need an adapter to the D20... however, it would be easier and less expensive to drop the Dana 20 in favor of a Dana 300. This will provide a better low range ratio, and the adapter (a clocking ring) is fairly inexpensive. This would be a much much better solution than a D18 and Warn overdrive IMO.

Not to be too negative, but I think you should lay out the gear ratios and RPM at highway speed on a sheet of paper and look at each side-by-side. What you describe seems to me that you are spending a lot for not much additional capability. Axle gear changes in particular are either high in skill and labor, or expensive. With an overdrive transmission, I would expect 4.27s or 4.54s would be more on target. Keeping your axles and going with a different transmission seems much more sensible to me. The T-15 is a good transmission, but you could get a lower 1st gear and more gears by swapping in a T-176 or the Jeep close-ratio T-18. This would improve your performance off the line a bit. There is also the Ford T-19 which is synchromesh in all 4 forward gears, and offers three different sets of ratios. If you want better trail performance, any of the truck 4-speeds will provide a compound low gear that will help a lot on the trail.

Note that I own a truck with the same drive train combo, and I still have the short original size tires. It's fine around town and kind of noisy on the highway. I attribute the noise mostly to the fixed blade fan and lack of insulation on the floors - both easily remedied. The T-15 is easy to drive and it feels a lot smaller and more maneuverable than my J20. These 258 trucks were not fast even when new, and I would gently suggest that it will take a lot to make it into something it never was. If it were me, I would go with shorter tires and just drive it.
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Last edited by tgreese : 12-30-2017 at 12:12 PM.
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Old 12-30-2017, 12:05 PM
NBD925 NBD925 is offline
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Tgreese: thanks for all the info. The price of the new Novak AX15 is about $1500 and the price of a Saturn Overdrive or A.T.V. Is about $800-$900 After you get all the adaptors, clutch, linkages, drivelines and mounts it becomes more than $3000 to do the AX15 Swap plus all the fab work.

The Dana 18 is a direct swap so far and you can add the overdrive later by just bolting it up to the PTO. I’ll have to check out some other forums to see if anyone has taken there Dana 18 up to 75 MPH highway speeds for prolonged periods. I think the intermediate shaft upgrade would be a must.



TPIcherokee: From the pictures I have seen, the Quadra-Trac Dana 44’s in the J10 were offest. Maybe I’m looking at older Jeeps than mine? I guess one question would be what is the Input shaft to Rear output shaft widths in the Dana 18 vs the Quadra-trac. What I’m getting at is the Dana 18 could be a little wider than the quarda-track putting the rear driveline output shafts further to the pasenger side.

I’ll try to get some offest measurements of my J10 Dana 44 rear axle as a baseline. I can also measure the Width of the Dana 20 input and output because the Dana 18 will be the same width.

If someone knows the Quarda-trac width that would answer that question.
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Old 12-30-2017, 12:28 PM
NBD925 NBD925 is offline
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TPIcherokee: it looks like your right, same rear axle for the Dana 20 and Quarda-Trac transfer cases. Must be due to the long length of the driveshaft making the angles less extreme.

I guess I would still need to know if the Dana 18 Rear output is wider than the quarda-trac. That could make a difference.
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Old 12-30-2017, 12:40 PM
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tgreese tgreese is offline
 
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Used AX15 or NP3550. Who can afford a Novak transmission?

At the least, you need the Novak hardened intermediate shaft or equivalent for the D18. Herm has developed his own parts assortment for the D18 that includes something like the Novak shaft. For the tapered bearings, you will need the assistance of a machinist to modify the D18 case, along with the Advance Adapters parts and assembly.

Geared transfer cases are narrower typically. They fit in the CJ frame rails, which are very narrow. Never measured it, but I can't imagine that the D18 is wider than the BW13xx (original Quadratrac). Driveshaft offset will be a non-issue.

Speed of the D18 at 75 will depend on the axle ratio and tire height. The Warn/Saturn units are typically run with the 5.38s that most early CJ-5s had, so I expect driving at 75 will not be an issue. The transfer case won't be as cool as a D20 or D300, but plenty of CJs have run these. Note that the speed is likely an issue with durability, but the transfer case won't fail all at once. They just get REALLY NOISY as the intermediate shaft wears. Lots of first hand experience at earlyCJ5.com ... Herm can be very helpful, but he has his own interests to consider. Lots of feedback about Herm on ECJ5 too.

Not implying that I endorse the D18 ...
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Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination ATs, 7600 GVWR
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Last edited by tgreese : 12-30-2017 at 12:55 PM.
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Old 01-02-2018, 02:26 PM
NBD925 NBD925 is offline
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Well I used this Gear calculator: http://www.grimmjeeper.com/gears.html

My Original Specs:
T-15 Trans
Dana 20
3.54 gearing
235x75 R15 wheels and tires

Also entered in the new specs:

T-15 Trans
Dana 20 Tera Low
3.92 Gearing
235x85 R16 Wheels and tires (new custom rims and Duratrac tires)

Gearing the axles to 3.92 gets me back to the stock RPM and speed ranges. Between the new and old specs the RMP will be about 30 RPM difference.

The new setup will have the truck at
2698 RPM at 65 MPH
2906 RPM at 70 MPH
3113 RPM at 75 MPH

What are your guys thoughts on these numbers?

What a 25% over drive would do is allow me to gear the axles to 4.11 and keep the Jeep in a normal RPM range. I decided it was not worth swapping out a Dana 20 for a Dana 18.
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Old 01-02-2018, 03:18 PM
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That will be a good set up. My .02 anyway.
Only way to make it better would be to roll a T18 in there instead of the T15. 6:1 first gear is awesome. You will be well set up w/ the Tera low though.


J20
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Old 01-02-2018, 05:26 PM
NBD925 NBD925 is offline
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I thought about the T18 but didn’t want to deal with the straight cut First/low and Reverse.
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Old 01-02-2018, 06:27 PM
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tgreese tgreese is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NBD925
I thought about the T18 but didn’t want to deal with the straight cut First/low and Reverse.

Reserse on any manual transmission is unsynchronized, and most likely straight cut. The straight cut is stronger than beveled and does not affect anything except noise, causing whine. Most reverse gears whine anyway.

With the truck 4-speeds that are wide ratio, you drive them like a 3-speed. The low gear is used on the trail or when starting out with very heavy loads. Unloaded and around town, you start out in 2nd.

However, the Ford T-19 is synchromesh in all forward gears, and can be found in close ratio, wide ratio, and in-between ratio versions.

All the truck 4-speeds are very tough and a used one is unlikely to need much before installation.

http://novak-adapt.com/knowledge/tra...anual/t18-t19/
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Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination ATs, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
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Last edited by tgreese : 01-02-2018 at 06:35 PM.
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