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  #1  
Old 01-07-2004, 11:32 AM
imported_dabatman imported_dabatman is offline
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I am looking at some used rims on ebay for my 79 jeep j20. It has the stock 16.5" rims, and I was wondering if 16.5" rims off a dodge, chev, or Ford will fit? I don't really want to chance it. I know there are lots of smart people out there who can answer this one...

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!1
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  #2  
Old 01-07-2004, 11:37 AM
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Crazy_Jeepman Crazy_Jeepman is offline
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Since you are Shopping for new wheels, I would go to 16" Tires are cheaper along with a better selection. 8 Lug will fit except for Ford I think it is, since the center hole is a bit smaller, not sure on that. GM and Dodge 8 Lug should fit though.
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Old 01-07-2004, 11:39 AM
carrotman carrotman is offline
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Not sure about the lug spacing, but there is a limited choice of tires for 16.5" rims. May want to go with 16" rims.
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Old 01-07-2004, 11:42 AM
Joe Guilbeau Joe Guilbeau is offline
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I believe that the old Jeeps had 16-inch wheels, and that the 16.5 inch wheels have had some bad press due to folks mixing 16" and 16.5" (tires and wheels) by mistake.

I went with the 16 inch rims for this reason, there have been several lawsuits that have resulted in massive injury to the installer and somehow the owner of the vehicle got caught up in the mess. Yikes!

"...The Florida 4th District Court of Appeals reinstated a wrongful death suit involving a mechanic who was killed when a 16-inch tire he had just mounted on a 16.5-inch wheel exploded when he tried to inflate it.

A lower court had granted summary judgment to the defendant rim and tire manufacturers, ruling the instructions printed on the tire stated 16-inch tires should be mounted on 16-inch rims and the mechanic knew of the dangers and caused the accident through his own negligence.

The appeals court found, however, that while the tire warning gave instructions to use matching tire and rims, it gave no hint a mismatch could cause death or a serious injury...

From the National Law Journal..."
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Old 01-07-2004, 11:57 AM
JeepFreak JeepFreak is offline
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The 16.5 meet "commercial standards" and guys don't like them because the don't have a safety bead like all other rims. This makes them less liked in offroading circles because you can't air them down to far or else they will pop or spin a bead. Also like everyone else has said I would go 16 cause tires will be cheaper and you will have a better selection.
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Old 01-07-2004, 12:34 PM
Bob Barry Bob Barry is offline
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I think the Jeep used the same center-hole Chevy 8-lugs, which was the smallest of the three. That means that a Dodge or Ford 8-lug rim would have a larger center-hole, which would fit on the Jeep's hub.

I found this out when trying to put Chevy 8-lug rims on my Dodge 8-lug front, and finding it a no-go.

Of course, it goes without saying that there was an overzealous wheel-pattern engineer employed by Ford in the 1997 era, who came up with such wonderful things as the 8x170mm Superduty lug-pattern (completely incompatible with all earlier 8x6.5" patterns, which had worked fine for decades), as well as that brilliant 7-lug pattern for Expeditions and the light-duty F250's.
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Old 01-07-2004, 02:06 PM
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You know, I have read most of the 16" vs 16.5" rim stuff, like most of you have.
I remember (yada yada yada) just beating the crap out of 16.5" wheels and tires from the mid 70's, sock one & oversize ones.
Never had one blow off a rim, never had a bead break, never did nothing but damage to the truck or the stuff I hit.
I unmounted and remounted 4 16.5" & 4 15" rims today (part of a training thing at work, but my rims from the junkyard), I didn't see any noticable difference in the rim construction or bead.
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Old 01-07-2004, 02:57 PM
JeepFreak JeepFreak is offline
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The difference is subtle. Here is a link with a picture of the two different ones. I think it has to do with the degree of pitch with the safety bead. Growing up on a farm we had allot of 16.5 stuff and we never had problems but we did run allot of air in them.

Oh and I am in no way dogging 16.5 rims cuz I'm like Tad in that I have never seen one come off the rim. Only heard storys about people putting 16 on 16.5 and 16.5 on 16. I think it might be an urban legend.

[ January 07, 2004, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: JeepFreak ]
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  #9  
Old 01-07-2004, 05:13 PM
Bob Barry Bob Barry is offline
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SOME factory 16.5 rims did include a safety-bead, but most didn't. They don't always roll off the bead when aired-down, but they certainly do it more frequently than the 15" or 16" rims.
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  #10  
Old 01-07-2004, 07:24 PM
Joe Guilbeau Joe Guilbeau is offline
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OK, so I couldn't sleep....

I had to decide on this very matter, and so I picked the 16" rims so that the following crap would not suck me into the fray...got enough problems just being me without some poor sap getting injured and naming me in the lawsuits that are bound to occur...

With a 16-inch tire, it is just one less thing that Murphey can get ahold of to screw up your day.

Quote:
Originally posted by JeepFreak:

Oh and I am in no way dogging 16.5 rims cuz I'm like Tad in that I have never seen one come off the rim. Only heard storys about people putting 16 on 16.5 and 16.5 on 16. I think it might be an urban legend.
Here are some links on the subject matter...

http://www.ohioproductliability.com/...wyer/Tires.cfm

http://www.tirelitigation.com/failur...ire%20Mismatch

http://www.judicial.state.ia.us/supr...17/97-1518.asp

http://www.sdbar.org/opinions/1999/D...r/1999_152.htm

QUESTION I - 70 minutes

Parts of the following text are taken verbatim from Uniroyal Goodrich Tire Co. v. Martinez, No. 95-1159 (Tex. Oct. 15, 1998).

Roberto Martinez, together with his wife and children, sued Uniroyal Goodrich Tire Company ("Goodrich"), The Budd Company, and Ford Motor Company for personal injuries Martinez suffered when he was struck by an exploding 16" Goodrich tire that he was mounting on a 16.5" rim. Attached to the tire was a prominent warning label containing yellow and red highlights and a pictograph of a worker being thrown into the air by an exploding tire. The label stated conspicuously:

DANGER

NEVER MOUNT A 16" SIZE DIAMETER TIRE ON A 16.5" RIM. Mounting a 16" tire on a 16.5" rim can cause severe injury or death. While it is possible to pass a 16" diameter tire over the lip or flange of a 16.5" size diameter rim, it cannot position itself against the rim flange. If an attempt is made to seat the bead by inflating the tire, the tire bead will break with explosive force.

. . .

NEVER inflate a tire which is lying on the floor or other flat surface. Always use a tire mounting machine with a hold-down device or safety cage or bolt to vehicle axle.

NEVER inflate to seat beads without using an extension hose with gauge and clip-on chuck.

NEVER stand, lean or reach over the assembly during inflation.

. . .

Failure to comply with these safety precautions can cause the bead to break and the assembly to burst with sufficient force to cause serious injury or death.

Unfortunately, Martinez ignored every one of these warnings. While leaning over the assembly, he attempted to mount a 16" tire on a 16.5" rim without a tire mounting machine, a safety cage, or an extension hose. Martinez explained, however, that because he had removed a 16" tire from the 16.5" rim, he believed that he was mounting the new 16" tire on a 16" rim. Moreover, the evidence revealed that Martinez's employer failed to make an operable tire-mounting machine available to him at the time he was injured, and there was no evidence that the other safety devices mentioned in the warning were available.

In their suit, the Martinezes did not claim that the warnings were inadequate, but instead alleged that Goodrich, the manufacturer of the tire, Budd, the manufacturer of the rim, and Ford, the designer of the rim, were each negligent and strictly liable for designing and manufacturing a defective tire and rim. Budd and Ford settled with the Martinezes before trial, and the case proceeded solely against Goodrich.

At trial, the Martinezes claimed that the tire manufactured by Goodrich was defective because it failed to incorporate a safer alternative bead design that would have kept the tire from exploding. This defect, they asserted, was the producing cause of Martinez's injuries. Further, they alleged that Goodrich's failure to adopt this alternative bead design was negligence that proximately caused Martinez's injury.

The bead is the portion of the tire that holds the tire to the rim when inflated. A bead consists of rubber-encased steel wiring that encircles the tire a number of times. When the tire is placed inside the wheel rim and inflated, the bead is forced onto the bead-seating ledge of the rim and pressed against the lip of the rim, or the wheel flange. When the last portion of the bead is forced onto this ledge, the tire has "seated," and the air is properly sealed inside the tire. The bead holds the tire to the rim because the steel wire, unlike rubber, does not expand when the tire is inflating. The tire in this case was a 16" bias-ply light truck tire with a 0.037" gauge multi-strand weftless bead, or tape bead, manufactured in 1990. A tape bead consists of several strands of parallel unwoven steel wires circling the tire with each layer resting on top of the last, similar to tape wound on a roll. After a number of layers have been wound, the end of the bead is joined, or spliced, to the beginning of the same bead to form a continuous loop.

The Martinezes' expert, Alan Milner, a metallurgical engineer, testified that a tape bead is prone to break when the spliced portion of the bead is the last portion of the bead to seat. This is commonly called a hang-up. Milner testified that an alternative bead design, a 0.050" gauge single strand programmed bead, would have prevented Martinez's injuries because its strength and uniformity make it more resistant to breaking during a hang-up. Milner explained that the 0.050" single strand programmed bead is stronger because it is 0.013" thicker and that it is uniform because it is wound, or programmed, by a computer, eliminating the spliced portion of the bead that can cause the tire to explode during a hang-up.

According to Milner, Firestone was the first to document that tape beads were prone to break during hang-ups in a 1955 patent application. This application, which was granted three years later, stated in part:

It has developed that in tires of the type now in common use that the grommet of wire used becomes ruptured or broken too frequently at or near the end of the wire splice when the tire bead is forced onto the rim bead seat during mounting of the tire. Applicant has discovered that such breaking of the bead wire occurs most frequently when the spliced portion of the bead wire grommet is located in the last portion of the tire bead to be seated on the rim, and they have noted that when an end of the said wire ribbon was disposed on the radial inner surface of the bead grommet that the break started at or adjacent to that point.

Milner testified that the design of the bead in the Goodrich tire in question was the same design criticized in the patent. Milner also testified, relying on an internal memorandum that was admitted into evidence, that in 1971 General Tire, one of Goodrich's competitors, knew its tape bead design was prone to break during hang-ups.

In 1966, 16.5" wheel rims were first introduced into the American market.1 Milner testified that Uniroyal, Inc. and B.F. Goodrich Company, who in 1986 merged to form Goodrich, soon became aware that mismatching their 16" tires with the new wheel rims often caused hang-ups that resulted in broken beads. The minutes of a 1972 meeting of the Rubber Manufacturers Association ("RMA"), of which both Uniroyal, Inc. and B.F. Goodrich were members, provided:

Mounting of LT [light truck] tires. Attention was drawn to reports that there have been instances where 16" LT tires have been mounted on 16.5" rims and 14" tires on 14.5" rims. It was proposed and approved to request the Service Managers Committee to add a cautionary statement to RMA documents.

Similarly, the minutes from a 1972 meeting of the Tire and Rim Association, of which Uniroyal, Inc. and B.F. Goodrich were both members, provided:

It was reported that there have been incidents where 14"and 16" tires have been mounted on 14.5" and 16.5" rims that have resulted in broken beads. The Rim Subcommittee of the Technical Advisory Committee was requested to consider some method of marking 15" Drop Center rims and wheels to avoid this practice.


Finally, Milner testified that B.F. Goodrich's own testing department was aware by at least 1976 that a 16" tire mounted on a 16.5" rim would explode during a hang-up. A B.F. Goodrich "test request" of that year was entered into evidence indicating that a 16" tire would explode when mounted on a 16.5" rim at 73 psi (pounds of pressure per square inch). The test request further indicated that "inspection revealed break was at [illegible] ends of bottom layer of [bead] wires as anticipated." The stated "Object of Test" was: "To develop demonstrative evidence & data for use in lawsuits involving broken beads."


Milner explained that the computer technology required to manufacture the programmed bead was developed in 1972 and widely available by 1975. Milner testified that Goodyear began using a 0.051" gauge single strand programmed bead in its radial light truck tires in 1977, and that Yokohama began using a single strand programmed bead in its radial light truck tires in 1981. Milner also testified that General Tire began using a single strand programmed bead in its bias-ply light truck tires in 1982. Finally, Milner testified that Goodrich itself began using the single strand programmed bead in its 16" radial light truck tires in 1991.

After these facts were presented, the court proceeded to discuss the outcome of this case. Please respond to the above fact pattern by identifying and discussing the arguments for and against all the relevant tort law issues that a thorough attorney would consider with respect to all the parties mentioned, even if these issues were not considered explicitly by the parties. Please include also a discussion of the kinds of damages that the plaintiffs’ attorneys would request.

The Florida 4th District Court of Appeals reinstated a wrongful death suit involving a mechanic who was killed when a 16-inch tire he had just mounted on a 16.5-inch wheel exploded when he tried to inflate it. A lower court had granted summary judgment to the defendant rim and tire manufacturers, ruling the instructions printed on the tire stated 16-inch tires should be mounted on 16-inch rims and the mechanic knew of the dangers and caused the accident through his own negligence. The appeals court found, however, that while the tire warning gave instructions to use matching tire and rims, it gave no hint a mismatch could cause death or a serious injury. From the National Law Journal.
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  #11  
Old 01-07-2004, 11:58 PM
JeepFreak JeepFreak is offline
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I knew if I said it was an urban legend someone would go look up the info...Thanks for the great read Joe.
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