International Full Size Jeep Association
Home Forums Reader's Rigs Tech Library Trail Stories FSJ-List
International Full Size Jeep Association  

Go Back   International Full Size Jeep Association > Tire Kickin' > General FSJ Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-18-2012, 10:10 PM
Chief Gunner's Avatar
Chief Gunner Chief Gunner is offline
Gear Head
 
Join Date: Mar 10, 2006
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 588
Engine build ( a learning thread)

Everyone,
I am looking to do an engine rebuild in the next few months. I am interested in basically a stock rebuild, nothing crazy. Overall, I am happy with the engine in stock form. It has pleanty of power and torque for waht I need. My current engine is burning oils quite a bit, but still runs pretty strong for over 180,000 miles. My buddy (4X6 wag on here) has a spare engine we pulled from his "donor" wagoneer. The engine had some type of internal damage that we wont know about until we pull the engine apart. The goal is to rebuild this engine then swap it out with my current engine to be rebuilt when needed. I have talked to Ristow a little and he has given me a lot of information, but I want to hear from everyone as well. What would you do and why. Again, I want this to be a learning thread not just a "my way is better" thread. Why would you choose what you did. My buget is a little under 5k, but that includes a transmission bebuild and some other items for the jeep that I need to do. So far, this is what I am looking at as far as parts:

drivetrain mount kit KIT-7553 BJs Offroad 105.00
freeze plug 381-8001 BJs Offroad 17.00
lower gasket set BJs Offroad 23.80
upper gasket set BJs Offroad 51.00
camshaft bearings SH671S BJs Offroad 28.00
connecting rod bearings CB960P-8 BJs Offroad 56.00
piston rings E301K BJs Offroad 85.00
Keith Black piston 2225C BJs Offroad 305.00
main bearings MS1041P BJs Offroad 95.00
Edelbrock timing chain 7818 BJs Offroad 65.00
Edelbrock intake manafold 3731 BJs Offroad 265.00
Edelbrock cam 7132 Summit 270.00
Timing Cover Kit BJs Offroad 245.00

This is just to start. Let me know what I am missing or if there are better deals that you know about. Thanks in advance
__________________
The War Wagon: 1986 GW- SOA/SF on 33X12.50's, 360/727/NP228, CS 144 Alt, OBA
Wife's DD: 2012 Ford Focus SEL



My carbon foot print is bigger than your's.
WWW.SOCALULTIMATE4X4.COM
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-18-2012, 10:21 PM
REDONE's Avatar
REDONE REDONE is offline
Bleedin' Gasoline
 
Join Date: Aug 19, 2002
Location: Golden, CO
Posts: 1,752
If you've already spoken at length with Ristow, then you've already heard my recommendation and the best argument made for it by the person most qualified to make it.

Increase compression ratio, either by decking the block or using taller pistons, but increase your compression ratio to 9:1 at least. It increases power AND efficiency. I have no idea why the manufacturers used rediculously low compression ratios. I speculate that they assumed taking lead out of gas meant that eventually gas would have lower and lower resistance to detonation or something, but honestly. 9-9.5:1 will give you more power and milage and take away nothing in reliability or longevity.
__________________
2012 Winner of the Prestigious Ouray Cast Iron Butt Award
79 J-10 - The Money Badger!
304/T18/D20/D44s
What's been did:
Holley 4160/Ede' S.P.2.P.
MSD Streetfire based TFI
Custom-hack gauge cluster
Razor swap
Fancy exhaust (Thrush Muffler)
2 knob tape deck!
3" homebuilt lift
Half a hillbilly paint job
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-18-2012, 11:17 PM
Chief Gunner's Avatar
Chief Gunner Chief Gunner is offline
Gear Head
 
Join Date: Mar 10, 2006
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 588
yep, what he said. I like the idea of decking the block. I will have to figure all that out, but I think it makes sense to me.
__________________
The War Wagon: 1986 GW- SOA/SF on 33X12.50's, 360/727/NP228, CS 144 Alt, OBA
Wife's DD: 2012 Ford Focus SEL



My carbon foot print is bigger than your's.
WWW.SOCALULTIMATE4X4.COM
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-19-2012, 05:50 PM
joe joe is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 28, 2000
Location: PNWet, USA
Posts: 22,391
Just an opinion since I've got lots thought I'd spend one here. If Ristow has given you his game plan I'd trust it. Only thing I would question is the pistons. Don't know the full line of Keith Blacks stuff but when I see/hear Keith Black, I think forged pistons. IMHO forged pistons are an overkill($$$) hassel for a street motor. Great for racing but not so much for practical normal use. If KB also sells cast pistons for a 360 then I'd go with it, if forged only I'd look elsewhere and save some money and smoking/oil use grief.
__________________
joe
"Don't mind me. I'm just here for the alibi"
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-19-2012, 06:22 PM
WHSII's Avatar
WHSII WHSII is offline
Hack-Priss
 
Join Date: Feb 06, 2010
Location: Frankfort, KY
Posts: 1,804
I personally would let the machine shop supply the cam bearings and freeze plugs. They will warranty what they install. Unless you talk with them first, and they agree to your sections. They buy many sets per month, and I bet they can beat your price...

Depending how you feel about assembly, the machine shop should put it all together, more money, but if you do not have the specialty tools needed, it might be a wash. Ie torque wrench, ring compressor, valve spring compressor, etc.

I would consider balancing, it is not a necessity with a stock engine, but is is as good an insurance as to longevity to an engine rebuild as it gets.

BJ's is great, but I would also price quality auto parts stores for the main parts, all can get the rebuild parts. The machine shop probably gets a major discount because of all the parts they buy.

I like Joe's thoughts on pistons, If you are building a stock engine, go with stock.

With a rebuild of an AMC engine, I would make sure the rockers and bridges, were replaced, even if you went back stock. Of course, new lifters with the cam.

There are many many ways to do this, and many many ways to spend money.

I would first find a quality machine shop and find out what they can do for you.

As far as building your buddy's damaged engine, you might get bitten. a worn engine, vs an internally damaged engine could be many $$$ extra to rebuild. I would go with what I know.

Just my thoughts...
__________________
WH

Dad's J10, Honcho, 1980 Sport Side
Build http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=118144

https://picasaweb.google.com/113072766039246994279/JeepJ10Honcho

Herbina 1987 Grand Wagoneer




Founding Member, FSJ Prissy Restoration Association
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-19-2012, 08:02 PM
J20 project's Avatar
J20 project J20 project is offline
304 AMC
 
Join Date: Dec 27, 2000
Location: Nevada
Posts: 2,337
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MEL-MTC-1/
This Melling cam specs out pretty much the same

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MEL-40400/
This Melling timing set does the same..

Sometimes you are just paying for a name.
My 401 cranks w/ this set up.

J20
__________________
BP Drivetrain...........

Driveshafts for all Jeeps, Constant velocity rebuilds, Replacement, Repair
775-537-7918

https://www.facebook.com/BPShafts/
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-19-2012, 08:08 PM
REDONE's Avatar
REDONE REDONE is offline
Bleedin' Gasoline
 
Join Date: Aug 19, 2002
Location: Golden, CO
Posts: 1,752
Quote:
Originally Posted by J20 project
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MEL-MTC-1/
This Melling cam specs out pretty much the same

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MEL-40400/
This Melling timing set does the same..

Sometimes you are just paying for a name.
My 401 cranks w/ this set up.

J20

You put a Chevy cam and timing chain in your 401?!?!

The Melling MTA-1 is discontinued, but thanks to Ristow I know it's same enough to the Ede' Performer, and I've heard another say it's still made but by Sealed Power or something. Summit makes a double roller timing set as well, but I've heard it's got oiling issues, others not as bad. I'd go with what Ristow says, he seems to crap out another AMC rebuild every other month, that's about 24x as often as me.
__________________
2012 Winner of the Prestigious Ouray Cast Iron Butt Award
79 J-10 - The Money Badger!
304/T18/D20/D44s
What's been did:
Holley 4160/Ede' S.P.2.P.
MSD Streetfire based TFI
Custom-hack gauge cluster
Razor swap
Fancy exhaust (Thrush Muffler)
2 knob tape deck!
3" homebuilt lift
Half a hillbilly paint job
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-19-2012, 08:16 PM
The PIG Smith's Avatar
The PIG Smith The PIG Smith is offline
King Browless
 
Join Date: Nov 30, 2001
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana
Posts: 6,525
I would shop at BullTear (especially for the timing chain cover) and Z&M Jeeps as well for these parts
__________________
Bryan Smith
2005 Grand Cherokee Limited - HEMI! Current Daily Driver
1982 J10: Current Project, goal to be roadworthy in 2017: No Cab Brow!
1981 J20: Commercial flat bed. Long term Project: RUST! No Cab Brow!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayrodoh
...but if it works, I wouldn't touch it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindel
Best laid plans, yada yada yada...

Last edited by The PIG Smith : 11-19-2012 at 09:13 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-19-2012, 08:26 PM
J20 project's Avatar
J20 project J20 project is offline
304 AMC
 
Join Date: Dec 27, 2000
Location: Nevada
Posts: 2,337
Quote:
You put a Chevy cam and timing chain in your 401?!?!


Just representative friend.....The Melling might not be around now...

http://www.jegs.com/i/Edelbrock/350/2132/10002/-1

How about that for your Edelbrock set...179.99 for the amc?? Says 2132 rather than 7132 though

Good Luck
__________________
BP Drivetrain...........

Driveshafts for all Jeeps, Constant velocity rebuilds, Replacement, Repair
775-537-7918

https://www.facebook.com/BPShafts/

Last edited by J20 project : 11-19-2012 at 08:40 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-20-2012, 06:42 AM
jeepsr4ever's Avatar
jeepsr4ever jeepsr4ever is offline
www.Bulltear.com Chief
 
Join Date: Dec 28, 2002
Location: OOHH NOOO Im from minnesota
Posts: 3,823
KB pistons are now made in India and are known for the last year and a half to fall apart. I dont care where you get your pistons but dont sell yourself short buy some good forged pistons for street use and youll never have to worry about them and youll get the same performance out of them as a cast piston but they will outlast the cast pistons by many times.
__________________
AMC/Jeep Forum
Custom machined AMC/4X4/Race Parts...www.Bulltear.com
///
"We offer performance, reliability and customization for your AMC V8"
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-20-2012, 07:29 AM
Ristow Ristow is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 20, 2006
Location: The Great Googley Moogley Midwest.
Posts: 17,104
i've bought a lot of parts from maddogracing. good prices and parts. free shipping a lot of the times as well.


melling mta1 in stock. 100.00 you'll need to get the lifters. about 60.00

http://www.fastengineparts.com/amc-j...shaft-cam.html

full clevite bearing kit. 129.00

http://www.fastengineparts.com/amc-j...3-304-360.html

full gasket kit. 65.00

http://www.fastengineparts.com/amc-j...asket-set.html

look at the Offy Equa Flo intake. it's 40 bucks more. i put one on my 401,and i like it a lot. it is a mid range intake,but i really don';t see a loss of idle. this motor,in a lited cherokee on 33" MT's has delivered over 15mpg averages.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ofy-5917


these engines don't have to be as expensive to rebuild as some think. i can tell you where to get the good parts,and what parts to avoid.


the parts listed above save you almost enough to start thinking about some better rockers. people will say they're overkill on a stock/mild motor. i disagree. over built is good. also,roller rockers maintain the lift ratio thru the arc. stock rockers do not,the ratio changes as the tip rolls over the valve. the roller tip greatly enhances valve stem life. the stock rocker scrubs back and forth on the valve tip.

i have 1.7 ratio roller tips in my 401. increased lift,with negligible affect on duration.


i would pass on the new timing cover,and refurb the stock one,unless real tore up in the pump cavity.

you will never see the intake valley oil line on one of my motors. that little mod has blown more motors than it has "saved".
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hankrod
Ristows right.................again,




Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasts79Chief
... like the little 'you know what's' that you are.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasts79Chief
I LOVE how Ristow has stolen my comment about him ... "Quoted" it ... and made himself famous for being an ***hole to people. Hahahahahahahahahha!


→ Where the kids hang out...

fsjbuilder.org come for the mindless chat,stay for the hand drawn emoticons.

It's like you're unraveling a big cable-knit sweater that someone keeps knitting...and knitting...and knitting...and knitting...
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-20-2012, 12:03 PM
blazer3664's Avatar
blazer3664 blazer3664 is offline
350 Buick
 
Join Date: Mar 08, 2009
Location: Fayette county Illinois
Posts: 976
Lots of good advise here.

Thanks for sharing that bit about KB pistons jeepsr4ever, had not heard about that yet.

As far as upgrades while you are at it, I agree with Ristow........
Quote:
the parts listed above save you almost enough to start thinking about some better rockers. people will say they're overkill on a stock/mild motor. i disagree. over built is good. also,roller rockers maintain the lift ratio thru the arc. stock rockers do not,the ratio changes as the tip rolls over the valve. the roller tip greatly enhances valve stem life. the stock rocker scrubs back and forth on the valve tip.

i have 1.7 ratio roller tips in my 401. increased lift,with negligible affect on duration.

Good "bang for the buck" right there. (higher ratio rockers) Has the same general effect as a bigger cam, without the rough idle.

I would like to here more about this though.....

Quote:
you will never see the intake valley oil line on one of my motors. that little mod has blown more motors than it has "saved".
I thought that was supposed to be a good thing?

Not so sure there is really a problem with the factory set-up, since many of these engines go 1-200k just fine. On the other hand, my 401 was killed by oil starved rear rod bearings. My understanding is thats what the oil mod is SUPPOSED to help prevent.

Is there something builders are doing wrong when they install it, or is the mod itself not right?

While the whole oiling thing is on the table, what about the restricted oiling pushrods that Bulltear sells? Might help keep some additional oil pressure down low since the roller rockers wont need quite as much as the factory ones.

EDIT....
Just checked on those pushrods, they are actually listed as (increased crank oiling).
per their site...
Quote:
with a gold finish and a through hole that is .015" smaller than stock for increased oiling to the crank!

Jim
__________________
modified flares, removable top, OBA w/200psi tank,
LQ4, 4L80e,NWF doubler w/upside down 203
SOA w/ D44s F+R for now
H1 wheels+tires (cut), hydroboost brakes
custom shackle flip
W/F150 springs
-----Coming Soon-----
snorkels,
OX'd D60/14B-FF

Last edited by blazer3664 : 11-20-2012 at 12:10 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-20-2012, 06:01 PM
Ristow Ristow is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 20, 2006
Location: The Great Googley Moogley Midwest.
Posts: 17,104
i'm not convinced the external line is needed or "saves" a high performance engine.

especially on a daily driver. i've pulled amc's apart that showed no accelerated wear at the rear of the motor.

you pop that line,or have a fitting come loose and you will lose the motor before you know what happened.

if i were to modify the oil system i would be more inclined to link the two lifter galleys together at the rear of the block. but again,it's an external line and comes with risks.

the output to block hole is about 1/2" on these blocks. the galley running up to the lifter valley junction is 1/2",and the lifter galleys are about 1/2" as well. granted,the bottleneck is the lifter galleys,the lifters block about half of its' diameter.

but even there,at 50-60psi,that is a lot of oil volume going through there.

it would be interesting to put an oil pressure gauge at the rear of the block,on the lifter galley and compare readings at the front and rear of the oil system. i have a couple motors in the garage,i should do that test with some thin weight oil.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hankrod
Ristows right.................again,




Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasts79Chief
... like the little 'you know what's' that you are.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasts79Chief
I LOVE how Ristow has stolen my comment about him ... "Quoted" it ... and made himself famous for being an ***hole to people. Hahahahahahahahahha!


→ Where the kids hang out...

fsjbuilder.org come for the mindless chat,stay for the hand drawn emoticons.

It's like you're unraveling a big cable-knit sweater that someone keeps knitting...and knitting...and knitting...and knitting...
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The BigRed Build Thread Red20 Off-Road FSJ Tech 20 05-01-2012 09:51 PM
Starting my build thread for Megasquirt shackwrrr General FSJ Discussion 26 09-15-2010 08:31 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:06 AM.


Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
corner corner