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  #1  
Old 02-26-2018, 05:10 PM
rang-a-stang's Avatar
rang-a-stang rang-a-stang is online now
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401 Engine rebuild cost estimates

This summer I plan to pull my front clip to clean and align it, paint my engine bay and engine, install EFI/RV Cam/lifters/Intake/electric fans, and do front end re-wiring.

I have low oil pressure and when I did my rear main seal I noticed the rear bearing was starting to show copper. I planned to rebuild my oil pump and add a Bulltear oil pump mid plate while I have the engine out for cleaning and figured I would throw new main and rod bearings in but after reading a few threads here, everyone pretty much says don't waste your time; service the crank, do the rings and cam bearings. My compression is OK, not great, but OK. I did not want to pull my heads or do the rings because I am trying to keep an already expensive price tag down. If I pull the heads and do the rings, I have to add the cost of the machine work to the block (hot tank, hone, swap cam bearings), rings, and head gaskets. Yes, I know that's only a couple hundred'ish bucks but many little things are adding up.

My engine requirements:
1) CA Smog'able
2) Smooth running on 87 octane
3) Daily driver'able (including stop/go traffic in 100 degrees with A/C on)
4) No added maintenance requirements on top of factory
5) Maximize torque
I plan to run stock cooling system with electric fans, GM TBI with either 7747 or 7427 computer running my timing. I have 3.54's in my diffs, stock TH400, and part time QTrack.

When I calculate the cost of the bottom end and cam install I come up to about $500.
$45 Gasket set (oil pan, valve covers, Water pump, timing chain cover)
$66 Rod bearings
$85 Main bearings
$20 Oil pump rebuild kit
$25 Intake gasket
$40 Timing set
$120 RV Cam?
$65 Lifters?
$75 other (assembly lube, paint, coolant, oil, etc.)
I cannot find a "master engine rebuild" kit that includes all the gaskets, rings, and bearings for a 401.
If I add the rings, machine work, etc. I expect about another $300 which I don't really have.

So my questions:
A) do my estimates look accurate?
B) How dumb would it be to pull the engine, flip it over and service the crank, do all the lower bearings, and put it back together? (skip pulling the heads and changing the rings)
C) I have seen a few threads saying it's really dumb to throw a new cam on old bearings but then there are others that say they do it all the time. Is there a consensus?
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  #2  
Old 02-26-2018, 05:44 PM
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babywag babywag is offline
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I’d do pump now, really no point in waiting.
Refurb timing cover so it is w/in spec., and skip midplate.

An engine rebuild is a big ‘ole can of worms.
If you’re cool with putting on blinders and ignoring what you find after tear down? Go ahead and just do crank/rods/etc.

But, be assured if things do bother you it may spiral into a full rebuild?
I couldn’t on my LT1, and it got the better of me.
Was originally going to refresh, but peeked past blinders.
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  #3  
Old 02-26-2018, 05:55 PM
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tgreese tgreese is offline
 
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Location: Medford MA USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rang-a-stang
This summer I plan to pull my front clip to clean and align it, paint my engine bay and engine, install EFI/RV Cam/lifters/Intake/electric fans, and do front end re-wiring.

I have low oil pressure and when I did my rear main seal I noticed the rear bearing was starting to show copper. I planned to rebuild my oil pump and add a Bulltear oil pump mid plate while I have the engine out for cleaning and figured I would throw new main and rod bearings in but after reading a few threads here, everyone pretty much says don't waste your time; service the crank, do the rings and cam bearings. My compression is OK, not great, but OK. I did not want to pull my heads or do the rings because I am trying to keep an already expensive price tag down. If I pull the heads and do the rings, I have to add the cost of the machine work to the block (hot tank, hone, swap cam bearings), rings, and head gaskets. Yes, I know that's only a couple hundred'ish bucks but many little things are adding up.

My engine requirements:
1) CA Smog'able
2) Smooth running on 87 octane
3) Daily driver'able (including stop/go traffic in 100 degrees with A/C on)
4) No added maintenance requirements on top of factory
5) Maximize torque
I plan to run stock cooling system with electric fans, GM TBI with either 7747 or 7427 computer running my timing. I have 3.54's in my diffs, stock TH400, and part time QTrack.

When I calculate the cost of the bottom end and cam install I come up to about $500.
$45 Gasket set (oil pan, valve covers, Water pump, timing chain cover)
$66 Rod bearings
$85 Main bearings
$20 Oil pump rebuild kit
$25 Intake gasket
$40 Timing set
$120 RV Cam?
$65 Lifters?
$75 other (assembly lube, paint, coolant, oil, etc.)
I cannot find a "master engine rebuild" kit that includes all the gaskets, rings, and bearings for a 401.
If I add the rings, machine work, etc. I expect about another $300 which I don't really have.

So my questions:
A) do my estimates look accurate?
B) How dumb would it be to pull the engine, flip it over and service the crank, do all the lower bearings, and put it back together? (skip pulling the heads and changing the rings)
C) I have seen a few threads saying it's really dumb to throw a new cam on old bearings but then there are others that say they do it all the time. Is there a consensus?

New cam requires new lifters.

Boy, I don't know about the wisdom of taking the patch-up route. If you measure every journal, and can guarantee the journals are within the proper tolerance after just replacing the bearings, you may be ok.

If you replaced the rings without new pistons, you'd have to remove the ridge, pull the pistons and rods, hone the cylinders, and fit new cast iron rings.

Sometimes low oil pressure comes from bad cam bearings, and if that's a problem, you'd need to take the bare block to a shop for installation of the bearings. If you replace the cam, you'll get to look closely at the bearings.

I would not bother with an oil pump kit and midplate. Follow Ristow's article about lapping the timing cover, depending on how the clearance measures. The TSM tells you what the end clearance must be - you have to measure.

"Throwing new bearings in" lacks the general seriousness with which I would approach bearing replacement. Things have to measure right and fit right. If you get a crank kit (fitted bearings and a reground crank) you could confirm clearances with plastigage and be fairly confident that it's going to be ok. If I were going to put the old crank back, I would measure with an appropriate micrometer. It's a steel crank, so you should be able to put it back with new bearings unless it's been damaged somehow, but I would not assume anything.

Re the cam bearings, inspect the bearings. If they are peeling apart, you've got your answer. If not, measure and compare to the journal diameter. There should be a spec for what the clearance is.

Engine building is fun, but you have to keep everything clean, invest in tools, measure repeatedly, take your time, and be careful. It takes experience and good judgement to know where you can cut corners, and where you shouldn't.
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Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination ATs, 7600 GVWR
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  #4  
Old 02-27-2018, 10:54 AM
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tgreese tgreese is offline
 
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Here's the thread I was referring to http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=106458

Unfortunately it has the PBucket ransomware problem. It's a valuable resource - maybe Ristow will restore it.
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Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination ATs, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
ECO Green: '15 FCA Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk
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  #5  
Old 02-27-2018, 11:46 AM
Ristow Ristow is online now
 
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I have a great thread on this topic , complete with pics of the trashed cam bearing spoken of in this thread, but with all the photo bucket pics off line it's kinda ruined.
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  #6  
Old 02-27-2018, 11:55 AM
rang-a-stang's Avatar
rang-a-stang rang-a-stang is online now
360 AMC
 
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Location: Camarillo, CA
Posts: 2,569
Quote:
Originally Posted by babywag
I’d do pump now, really no point in waiting.
Refurb timing cover so it is w/in spec., and skip midplate.

An engine rebuild is a big ‘ole can of worms.
If you’re cool with putting on blinders and ignoring what you find after tear down? Go ahead and just do crank/rods/etc.

But, be assured if things do bother you it may spiral into a full rebuild?
I couldn’t on my LT1, and it got the better of me.
Was originally going to refresh, but peeked past blinders.
Good point (oil pump now). I have a mid plate I traded another part for so I might as well use it.
That is EXACTLY what I am afraid of (big 'ol can of worms/spiraling into a full rebuild). I was drawing a line at pulling the heads/rings but now I almost feel that I should. But I really don't want to and cant really afford it. I was planning to take a week off work to do all this so I could go Friday-Monday (10 days) and get it all done but if I have to pull the whole engine apart and send out for machining/etc. that will kill my schedule and it will draw out for weeks because I will have to raise the additional money and find another time to get it back together.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgreese
New cam requires new lifters.

Boy, I don't know about the wisdom of taking the patch-up route. If you measure every journal, and can guarantee the journals are within the proper tolerance after just replacing the bearings, you may be ok.

If you replaced the rings without new pistons, you'd have to remove the ridge, pull the pistons and rods, hone the cylinders, and fit new cast iron rings.

Sometimes low oil pressure comes from bad cam bearings, and if that's a problem, you'd need to take the bare block to a shop for installation of the bearings. If you replace the cam, you'll get to look closely at the bearings.

I would not bother with an oil pump kit and midplate. Follow Ristow's article about lapping the timing cover, depending on how the clearance measures. The TSM tells you what the end clearance must be - you have to measure.

"Throwing new bearings in" lacks the general seriousness with which I would approach bearing replacement. Things have to measure right and fit right. If you get a crank kit (fitted bearings and a reground crank) you could confirm clearances with plastigage and be fairly confident that it's going to be ok. If I were going to put the old crank back, I would measure with an appropriate micrometer. It's a steel crank, so you should be able to put it back with new bearings unless it's been damaged somehow, but I would not assume anything.

Re the cam bearings, inspect the bearings. If they are peeling apart, you've got your answer. If not, measure and compare to the journal diameter. There should be a spec for what the clearance is.

Engine building is fun, but you have to keep everything clean, invest in tools, measure repeatedly, take your time, and be careful. It takes experience and good judgement to know where you can cut corners, and where you shouldn't.
copy (New cam=new lifters). They are in my budget.
That all makes perfect sense. I'll plan to pull the crank and mic it. Maybe I'll just bring it to a shop and have them recondition it and sell me the correct bearings. You mention a "Crank kit"; when I search "401 crank kit" I mostly see stroker cranks and some super expensive kits. Any recommendations? I found a machine shop in Santa Clarita that has some AMC experience (JGM Performance Engineering) but I haven't called them to get prices, yet.

This is my first AMC V8 and the first time I have had to deal with low oil pressure. My other rebuilds have always been from worn rings or head problems (Air cooled VW, Water cooled VW, 5.0, Geo Metro 3cyl). Those other engines are so common and easy to find parts for but this 401 is a new league for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgreese
Here's the thread I was referring to http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=106458

Unfortunately it has the PBucket ransomware problem. It's a valuable resource - maybe Ristow will restore it.
Copy all. This thread was kind of the reason I was heading more toward oil pump/cam/bearings at the same time. I have to pull the timing cover/chain to get at the cam anyway so I figured I would do it all at once and save a gasket set, gallon of coolant, oil change, and some time. The midplate was more because I thought it would last longer but I may just install it now to see what happens since I have it and plan to do the full timing cover (IAW Ristow's article) when I pull the engine.
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  #7  
Old 02-27-2018, 11:56 AM
rang-a-stang's Avatar
rang-a-stang rang-a-stang is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ristow
I have a great thread on this topic , complete with pics of the trashed cam bearing spoken of in this thread, but with all the photo bucket pics off line it's kinda ruined.
There are few websites I dislike more than PB these days.
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  #8  
Old 02-27-2018, 12:29 PM
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babywag babywag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rang-a-stang
There are few websites I dislike more than PB these days.

Get the PB plugin for your browser, the pics still show(for now) w/ plugins installed.

I am exactly in the stalled position for $ reasons. My LT1 shortblock is assembled and waiting for heads. Mine need a full rework.

So for now, it just sits bagged on the stand, until some ca$h appears to finish it.

Initially I was just going to do the bottom end, and run it LOL.
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  #9  
Old 02-27-2018, 01:40 PM
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tgreese tgreese is offline
 
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Location: Medford MA USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rang-a-stang
... You mention a "Crank kit"; when I search "401 crank kit" I mostly see stroker cranks and some super expensive kits. Any recommendations? ...

Back in the day, this was common terminology for reground crank and fitted bearings. If you search for "reground crankshaft kits" you will find lots of links. You probably get off track by including "401" in your search. The 401 is scarce enough that the shop would very likely want your core to grind and return with bearings.
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Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination ATs, 7600 GVWR
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  #10  
Old 02-27-2018, 02:08 PM
joe joe is offline
 
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As Tim said don't search for crank kit. Generally just main bearings but depending on condition you may need to have your crank ground and then buy oversize bearings. You won't know till you tear it down, inspect and mic the crank. The 401 cranks are forged not cast so last a long time. Bad part is if you ruin one beyond repair they are very hard to find and crazy expensive if you do find one. Shouldn't be major concern for you but you DO need to mic it before ordering bearings.
On a side note don't let anyone talk you into a big overbore w/o sonic testing the block beforehand. They handle a clean-up and a small overbore (max 0.030" and the factory recommends no more than 0.0225") but anything over 30 w/o testing is a serious crap shoot with the odds against you and you'll just end up with stove/heat generator. AKA junk block/boat anchor.
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  #11  
Old 02-28-2018, 12:29 PM
Ristow Ristow is online now
 
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here's the thread from my 401,but with the pics locked up it's kinda useless.

http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=117818


a very controversial thread,it caused Hankrod to get banned for life,LOL!

heres my PB account link,the 401 pics are on pages 36 thru 42,you can pretty much figure out what pic im talking about in the thread.

http://s453.photobucket.com/user/Ris...?sort=3&page=1
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Ristows right.................again,




Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasts79Chief
... like the little 'you know what's' that you are.




Quote:
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I LOVE how Ristow has stolen my comment about him ... "Quoted" it ... and made himself famous for being an ***hole to people. Hahahahahahahahahha!


→ Where the kids hang out...

fsjbuilder.org come for the mindless chat,stay for the hand drawn emoticons.

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Last edited by Ristow : 02-28-2018 at 12:37 PM.
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  #12  
Old 03-01-2018, 10:40 AM
yossarian19 yossarian19 is offline
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Clegg engine lists a master rebuild kit as well as some less inclusive kits. Never heard anything bad about them and they do a lot of Jeep (AMC) engines, mostly I6 stuff these days.

Northern auto parts does, too

I put rebuilt heads on top of the 401 that came in my Jeep; it made 60psi cold idle pressure and a pretty even 120 psi cranking compression. I'm hoping I can drive it a little while before I revisit these threads & links with a more detailed read and an open wallet. Wish me luck.
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Old 03-06-2018, 03:25 PM
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rang-a-stang rang-a-stang is online now
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OK. Common sense is getting me and that Northern link answers one of my earlier questions. I'm going to move my line. I am going to plan on re-ringing. I am going to plan on replacing the cam bearings. I am going to plan on buying a rebuild kit. My new line is the heads. I do not plan to send the heads out. I will rebuild the short block. The heads will come off, be cleaned/painted and re-installed.

So. Here is what I understand I am subscribing too (new budget):
$750 Master Rebuild kit (gasket set, bearing set, Timing set, Cam, lifters, etc.)
$25 Intake gasket
$300 Machine work (hot tank, cam bearing install, hone, polish crank journals)
$75 other (assembly lube, paint, coolant, oil, etc.)

Next question has to do with compression ratio. If I bore, say .020 over, (yes I know that adds cost) it will bump up my compression ratio some. I think this is great but am scared it would effect my NOx numbers on a smog check. How much compression can I take and still pass Commiefornia smog checks (with TBI, with a Cat, still have EGR)? How much would a .020 overbore bump my compression?

**EDIT: Found a good compression ratio calculator, I see that over boring would do almost nothing to compression ratio. My first question still stands though (How much compression can I take and still pass Commiefornia smog checks (with TBI, with a Cat, still have EGR)? )

Guess I need to start raising more money (like another $500)! Everyone keep an eye on the classifieds! Anyone need an electric water pump?
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Last edited by rang-a-stang : 03-06-2018 at 04:22 PM.
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  #14  
Old 03-06-2018, 04:26 PM
Ristow Ristow is online now
 
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the bump in compression from the bore increase is negligible. may even be less depending on the dish and compression height of the new pistons. you won't see anything note worthy without a smaller dish piston or smaller chamber heads. the better way to go is big chamber heads and smaller dish pistons.
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Ristows right.................again,




Quote:
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... like the little 'you know what's' that you are.




Quote:
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I LOVE how Ristow has stolen my comment about him ... "Quoted" it ... and made himself famous for being an ***hole to people. Hahahahahahahahahha!


→ Where the kids hang out...

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  #15  
Old 03-06-2018, 05:57 PM
rang-a-stang's Avatar
rang-a-stang rang-a-stang is online now
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My hope is I don't need to bore. Plenty of stories on this forum of folks that have discovered good bores with their 401 blocks. Since my compression is pretty good I am hopeful my cylinders will be relatively clean. I am hoping I can get by with smaller dish pistons and get a better CR.

The toughest spec for me to find when computing CR is the stock dish on a stock piston. I think I see I probably have 58cc combustion chambers (if I indeed have a stock 78 longblock). I found every other spec but had to assume a 42cc dished piston (my shop manual shows a 79 360 had a ~40cc). Here are the numbers I used:
Bore: 4.165"
Stroke: 3.68"
Combustion Chamber volume: 58CC
Piston dome: -42cc
Gasket thickness:.048"
This yields about 8.39:1.

So if I stay with my stock heads (and they ARE 58ccs) I would need about a 25-30cc dished piston to be at less that 10:1. I see Keith Black has a 28cc piston but they are almost $700 for a set at Summit.
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Old 03-20-2018, 12:43 PM
79 Wolfpack 79 Wolfpack is offline
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I bought a set of these pistons for a budget 401 build. 439.00$ I thought they looked well made, The machinist old man yo also thought they were nice pistons . 9.5:1 compression.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/8-Coated-Pi...79OhoctRjLCKsg
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Old 03-20-2018, 01:05 PM
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rang-a-stang rang-a-stang is online now
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Thanks Wolfpack! I will keep these in my favorites. Looks like $440+$40 shipping. Did yours show up with the coating? I notice the description said some are coated and some are not...
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Old 03-20-2018, 02:15 PM
79 Wolfpack 79 Wolfpack is offline
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Yes mine were coated . I was a green coating with the logo.
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