International Full Size Jeep Association
Home Forums Reader's Rigs Tech Library Trail Stories FSJ-List
International Full Size Jeep Association  

Go Back   International Full Size Jeep Association > Tire Kickin' > General FSJ Tech

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-13-2006, 11:25 AM
Eugene 1's Avatar
Eugene 1 Eugene 1 is offline
Bleedin' Gasoline
 
Join Date: Feb 04, 2006
Location: La Crosse,Wisconsin ,Wichita ks, Oklahoma City
Posts: 1,845
Question

Hey guys I know these questions have come up before:
Who is running either of these set ups? how simple or hard were they to install and get functioning properly? and what was your Performance and Fuel mileage like? Thanks E.

[ April 13, 2006, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: Eugene 1 ]
__________________
1970 Charger Daytona
2005 Ram 1500 Hemi
1979 Cherokee Dodge CTD with running Gear Build thread
http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=133468
MoPaR
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-13-2006, 01:04 PM
will e's Avatar
will e will e is offline
Always Broke
 
Join Date: Nov 16, 2001
Location: Mesa AZ
Posts: 9,994
Post

Holley analog projection 2bbl. Probably the most simple to install. Simple to tune but also the 'least' tuneable. If you get this unit go with the closed loop.

I like it. I average around 10 to 11mpg. I drove it to Tucson and got over 12mpg.

I have had one on my mustang for over 10 years and it works fine. One injector went bad, other than that no problems.

Good drivability. Good off the line throttle response. Kinda flat in a few spots.

Only supports up to 275hp.

I got this particular unit because I have on my mustang and I plan to switch it out for carbs. I figured I would then have spare parts.
__________________
82 Cherokee WT – SFwith Alcan/agr box/Borgeson shaft/ 401/performer/Holley TA/HEI/BeCool/727/ALTAS(2.0/2.72/5.44)/D60 Snofighter(Yukon Zip,hubs,stubs,4.56)/14 Bolt (FF,BF shave,Discs, ARB,Artec Truss)/MTR 37/Corbeau Moab Seats /Hella/tuffy console/sliders/custombumpers&roll bar/WARN 8000/steering brace/CO2 Tank/dual batts/custom TCskid plate





Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-13-2006, 01:10 PM
Eugene 1's Avatar
Eugene 1 Eugene 1 is offline
Bleedin' Gasoline
 
Join Date: Feb 04, 2006
Location: La Crosse,Wisconsin ,Wichita ks, Oklahoma City
Posts: 1,845
Post

Quote:
Originally posted by will e:
Holley analog projection 2bbl. Probably the most simple to install. Simple to tune but also the 'least' tuneable. If you get this unit go with the closed loop.

I like it. I average around 10 to 11mpg. I drove it to Tucson and got over 12mpg.

I have had one on my mustang for over 10 years and it works fine. One injector went bad, other than that no problems.

Good drivability. Good off the line throttle response. Kinda flat in a few spots.

Only supports up to 275hp.

I got this particular unit because I have on my mustang and I plan to switch it out for carbs. I figured I would then have spare parts.
Quote:
Originally posted by will e:
Holley analog projection 2bbl. Probably the most simple to install. Simple to tune but also the 'least' tuneable. If you get this unit go with the closed loop.

I like it. I average around 10 to 11mpg. I drove it to Tucson and got over 12mpg.

I have had one on my mustang for over 10 years and it works fine. One injector went bad, other than that no problems.

Good drivability. Good off the line throttle response. Kinda flat in a few spots.

Only supports up to 275hp.

I got this particular unit because I have on my mustang and I plan to switch it out for carbs. I figured I would then have spare parts.
was that 10 or 11 in town? was there any tuning issues?
__________________
1970 Charger Daytona
2005 Ram 1500 Hemi
1979 Cherokee Dodge CTD with running Gear Build thread
http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=133468
MoPaR
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-13-2006, 01:11 PM
brent's Avatar
brent brent is offline
Bleedin' Gasoline
 
Join Date: Feb 14, 2003
Location: downtown flagstaff az
Posts: 2,043
Post

WillE: have followed threads and contacted 3 efi joints since I've been here. I'm going to try to make this a merry-xmas-to-me reality when the time comes.
But 11-12 mpg? I was expecting (and led to believe) that ALL efis/tbis would put you in the mid-teen or better range.At what point did I become delusional? (loaded question..)
Brent
__________________
79 J10 360-T18-D20 D44's 31X10.5 Edel 1406 w/R4B, speed
-despite thousands invested, 360 in putrid death dance-

"Buy the Ticket, Take the Ride."
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-13-2006, 01:13 PM
Eugene 1's Avatar
Eugene 1 Eugene 1 is offline
Bleedin' Gasoline
 
Join Date: Feb 04, 2006
Location: La Crosse,Wisconsin ,Wichita ks, Oklahoma City
Posts: 1,845
Post

Im with you on that .I was expecting at least 14 or better
__________________
1970 Charger Daytona
2005 Ram 1500 Hemi
1979 Cherokee Dodge CTD with running Gear Build thread
http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=133468
MoPaR
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-13-2006, 01:48 PM
GED's Avatar
GED GED is offline
Grease Monkey
 
Join Date: May 20, 2002
Location: Grenoble, France, Europe
Posts: 473
Post

My TBI ain't tuned. But I'm at 9 MPG in town. (12 on highway with lightfoot).
__________________
Gilles-Eric
"La Goulue", '89 GW, reman. stock 360 with MSD6D & TBI, 727/229, 131K miles, 31x10.5 BFG AT.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-13-2006, 01:58 PM
89grand's Avatar
89grand 89grand is offline
Resident ***hole
 
Join Date: Feb 23, 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 5,667
Post

So what? The mileage sucks, it's going to no matter what you do. The driveability benefits are what really makes EFI worthwhile. I'd rather have an EFI system that gets 10mpg than a carburetor set up that gets 10mpg.

I really don't think there's a magical cure for ****ty gas mileage with the things.

That said, I still run a carb unfortunately.
__________________
Steve

1989 Black Grand Wagoneer, BJ's 4" lift, ProComp ES3000's
31x10.5x15 BFG AT KO's,MSD 6A,TFI upgrade,360,727,229,2.72 gears.
2006 Dodge Magnum R/T
2000 Jeep Wrangler
1988 Cadillac Brougham
1966 Dodge Monaco 500 383
1965 Pontiac Tempest 326
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-13-2006, 02:04 PM
brent's Avatar
brent brent is offline
Bleedin' Gasoline
 
Join Date: Feb 14, 2003
Location: downtown flagstaff az
Posts: 2,043
Post

89:" I'd rather have an EFI system that gets 10mpg than a carburetor set up that gets 10mpg."

As I don't have it either--and want it bad---are you really saying by just having an FSJ that's not
a rotten dog on the hills, then its worth it?
Thats my BIGGEST pet peeve/gripe, and, I'll buy that argument...
__________________
79 J10 360-T18-D20 D44's 31X10.5 Edel 1406 w/R4B, speed
-despite thousands invested, 360 in putrid death dance-

"Buy the Ticket, Take the Ride."
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-13-2006, 02:43 PM
will e's Avatar
will e will e is offline
Always Broke
 
Join Date: Nov 16, 2001
Location: Mesa AZ
Posts: 9,994
Post

That's 10 to 11, mixed driving. Closed loop on.
My driving 'style' has a little to do with it. With the upgrade from the tired 360 to the rebuilt 401 I no longer drive the waggy like a granny.

Remember. I have the old Holley 2bbl projection ANALOG unit. LEAST TUNABLE. However, once installed I was able to tune it to 'drive' in about 1 hour (after a couple of problems - Thanks keith for helping me push).

With a TBI (and a carb) you still end up tuning to the most 'lean' cyl. That means that the other 7 are running a little rich. You might get better milage with a MPFI unit. You might do better with something that measure MAP and has more fuel curves available.

Regardless of your carb it will not be easy to get mid teen milage from a brick with an AT and no locking torque converter.

As a side note. I do get better gas milage from this setup than from the old 360 with the 2bbl even though I drove that like a granny.
__________________
82 Cherokee WT – SFwith Alcan/agr box/Borgeson shaft/ 401/performer/Holley TA/HEI/BeCool/727/ALTAS(2.0/2.72/5.44)/D60 Snofighter(Yukon Zip,hubs,stubs,4.56)/14 Bolt (FF,BF shave,Discs, ARB,Artec Truss)/MTR 37/Corbeau Moab Seats /Hella/tuffy console/sliders/custombumpers&roll bar/WARN 8000/steering brace/CO2 Tank/dual batts/custom TCskid plate





Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-13-2006, 02:45 PM
will e's Avatar
will e will e is offline
Always Broke
 
Join Date: Nov 16, 2001
Location: Mesa AZ
Posts: 9,994
Post

Quote:
Originally posted by brent:
89:" I'd rather have an EFI system that gets 10mpg than a carburetor set up that gets 10mpg."

As I don't have it either--and want it bad---are you really saying by just having an FSJ that's not
a rotten dog on the hills, then its worth it?
Thats my BIGGEST pet peeve/gripe, and, I'll buy that argument...
And yes! My first trail ride (Redington Pass in Tucson) and NO STUBLE, NO STALLING and good throttle response. For me that was one of the big selling points.
__________________
82 Cherokee WT – SFwith Alcan/agr box/Borgeson shaft/ 401/performer/Holley TA/HEI/BeCool/727/ALTAS(2.0/2.72/5.44)/D60 Snofighter(Yukon Zip,hubs,stubs,4.56)/14 Bolt (FF,BF shave,Discs, ARB,Artec Truss)/MTR 37/Corbeau Moab Seats /Hella/tuffy console/sliders/custombumpers&roll bar/WARN 8000/steering brace/CO2 Tank/dual batts/custom TCskid plate





Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-13-2006, 08:03 PM
wickedwagon767's Avatar
wickedwagon767 wickedwagon767 is offline
Bleedin' Gasoline
 
Join Date: Dec 26, 2005
Location: DFW
Posts: 1,932
Post

89Grand drew the line in the right spot

Lets face it, FSJ's aren't going to get good mileage. If 'good' mileage to you is 14-16mpg then you're just lowering the bar.If you want mileage, get a little import that gets 40mpg to drive regularly and save a couple hundred dollars a month in gas to put into a 4bbl TBI upgrade. fuel injection from simple TBI setups to CFI,DPI and TPI......is just a no-brainer. I've had a couple of trucks with smoothish running carbs that I was somewhat satisfied with at the time,but after getting some seasoning and driving the '97 4x4 Ram I had , the '97 vortec350 chevy I had and the '91 TBI Suburban I drive now.....I will never willingly install a carburator again as long as I live. Sure, they're about half the price ,or less, than a full TBI setup.....but you get what you pay for my friends. Sure, the Edelbrock 1406 on my Wagoneer right now works very well running around on the street.

But I know a 4bbl TBI setup would run soooooo smooth on/off road and make me wet my pants.

Not because the mileage would raise a hair,maybe,but because all-around driveability dramatically improves and I could nearly run upside down and dig along stumble-free.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-13-2006, 09:36 PM
Eugene 1's Avatar
Eugene 1 Eugene 1 is offline
Bleedin' Gasoline
 
Join Date: Feb 04, 2006
Location: La Crosse,Wisconsin ,Wichita ks, Oklahoma City
Posts: 1,845
Post

Quote:
Originally posted by wickedwagon767:
89Grand drew the line in the right spot

Lets face it, FSJ's aren't going to get good mileage. If 'good' mileage to you is 14-16mpg then you're just lowering the bar.If you want mileage, get a little import that gets 40mpg to drive regularly and save a couple hundred dollars a month in gas to put into a 4bbl TBI upgrade. fuel injection from simple TBI setups to CFI,DPI and TPI......is just a no-brainer. I've had a couple of trucks with smoothish running carbs that I was somewhat satisfied with at the time,but after getting some seasoning and driving the '97 4x4 Ram I had , the '97 vortec350 chevy I had and the '91 TBI Suburban I drive now.....I will never willingly install a carburator again as long as I live. Sure, they're about half the price ,or less, than a full TBI setup.....but you get what you pay for my friends. Sure, the Edelbrock 1406 on my Wagoneer right now works very well running around on the street.

But I know a 4bbl TBI setup would run soooooo smooth on/off road and make me wet my pants.

Not because the mileage would raise a hair,maybe,but because all-around driveability dramatically improves and I could nearly run upside down and dig along stumble-free.
The fuel mileage is not my main concern,but 14-16 is better than 7-10...and i like the idea of better driveability.
__________________
1970 Charger Daytona
2005 Ram 1500 Hemi
1979 Cherokee Dodge CTD with running Gear Build thread
http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=133468
MoPaR
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-13-2006, 10:40 PM
475thFG 475thFG is offline
Gear Head
 
Join Date: Nov 09, 2004
Location: Missouri
Posts: 706
Post

About the only guaranteed way to make a FSJ (or any older full size US truck or SUV with a V8 built) get better than 14 or 15 mpg (if you're lucky enough to get that) is to increase efficiency, which means advancing timing and increasing compression, which further means burning fuel that isn't readily available. To make a significant difference, you'd need about 11 to 1 or better, which means burning at least 115 octane fuel.

Personally, I'm leaning towards burning ethanol. After I finish the building project I'm currently on, I'm going to order the plans for a reflux still, plant about 30 acres of corn, and do my best to fly the bird at the oil companies. My dodge work truck gets 10 mpg if I'm easy on the pedal, and even my wife's suburban struggles to make 15. I'm sick of the price game we get daily from oil companies. It takes maybe a buck to get a barrel of oil out of the ground, and it's selling for over $60? What a crock.
__________________
81 Cherokee, 360 auto

88 GW, 360 auto, perfect body and now running.

88 Comanche, 6 banger, auto w/overdrive (I'd really like to get rid of this stupid thing...I can't stand it)

(UPDATE: Chanting "I got my glaaaassss, I got my glaaaasss")
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-14-2006, 01:15 AM
Chevelleguy's Avatar
Chevelleguy Chevelleguy is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 20, 2003
Location: Forney,TX
Posts: 5,560
Post

Holley 2D, 10-12mpg w/ closed loop kit. As was said, I have a small flat spot while the engine is at about 140 deg but in general I love it. The tires and 3.31 gears don't help with the stop and go fuel consumption, but it keep my rpm's down and the lift doesn't help on the freeway. When the Wag was in stock form it got 10-12 city, 13-15hwy with the 2150 carb. But it runs sooo much better now with the TBI.

[ April 14, 2006, 07:31 AM: Message edited by: Chevelleguy ]
__________________
David "If all else fails, read the instructions."
83 Wag Lt,BJ's 6"lift,360/727/Pinned229,D44/trac-lok,AMC20/lock-right,35/12.50 Baja MTZ,Pro-Jection EFI.
10$ NP229 fix http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=2520
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-14-2006, 05:11 AM
wickedwagon767's Avatar
wickedwagon767 wickedwagon767 is offline
Bleedin' Gasoline
 
Join Date: Dec 26, 2005
Location: DFW
Posts: 1,932
Post

475thFG:

If you're serious, I commend you. Beyond the fact that I just paid over $60 to give my Suburban 7/8 of a tank @ 2.75/gal the supply and demand felanderers in the oil companys make me sick. To keep this from turning into a rant, I'll keep it short. They make more profit than any one of them will ever spend and the excess money just goes back into making more. We need a serious alternatively-powered vehicle to compete on the market so that they are forced to lower their prices. $3/gallon is rape.

BTW: I could always remove the doors and cut the top on my Wag for mileage tho the wind drag on the freeway and taking large bugs to the face doesn't seem promising at first

they could be tasty?
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 04-14-2006, 05:23 AM
will e's Avatar
will e will e is offline
Always Broke
 
Join Date: Nov 16, 2001
Location: Mesa AZ
Posts: 9,994
Post

If you want to stick it to the oil companies:

Drive Less
Drive Slower
Lower your weight
Air up your tires
Keep it tuned

As far as cost. Someone mentioned a carb is cheaper to buy. That made me realize that I have had to spend almost no money on my FI on the mustang in over 10 years. If that had been a carb it would have been a couple of kits or rebuilds. In the long run my FI will probably be less expensive.
__________________
82 Cherokee WT – SFwith Alcan/agr box/Borgeson shaft/ 401/performer/Holley TA/HEI/BeCool/727/ALTAS(2.0/2.72/5.44)/D60 Snofighter(Yukon Zip,hubs,stubs,4.56)/14 Bolt (FF,BF shave,Discs, ARB,Artec Truss)/MTR 37/Corbeau Moab Seats /Hella/tuffy console/sliders/custombumpers&roll bar/WARN 8000/steering brace/CO2 Tank/dual batts/custom TCskid plate





Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-14-2006, 07:40 AM
Clem Clem is offline
Master Mechanic
 
Join Date: Jan 18, 2005
Location: The land of mañana.
Posts: 776
Post

OK, so what route would anyone go if they were wanting to be above the 275 HP mark? I am researching this stuff myself right now. There is no reason a moderately built 360 can't put out 300+ HP...
__________________
Clem Harris. <br />My other car is a 293,500 lb. locomotive.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-14-2006, 02:10 PM
GED's Avatar
GED GED is offline
Grease Monkey
 
Join Date: May 20, 2002
Location: Grenoble, France, Europe
Posts: 473
Post

Yes, every morning, and every drive, TBI's a delight. The engine starts well now. no more cranking for 30 seconds. No more unexpected stalling. love it.

And for the $84 ($3/gallon) fill-ups, I remind myself that in France, they pay it $6/gallon.
__________________
Gilles-Eric
"La Goulue", '89 GW, reman. stock 360 with MSD6D & TBI, 727/229, 131K miles, 31x10.5 BFG AT.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-15-2006, 06:55 AM
Chevelleguy's Avatar
Chevelleguy Chevelleguy is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 20, 2003
Location: Forney,TX
Posts: 5,560
Post

Quote:
Originally posted by Clem:
OK, so what route would anyone go if they were wanting to be above the 275 HP mark? I am researching this stuff myself right now. There is no reason a moderately built 360 can't put out 300+ HP...
My boss has a 350 chevy in a CJ with the Holley 2D and it was dyno tuned to 320hp. Holley says 275hp but it will support more. And, CFM requirement increase with RPM so if you keep it under 4500-5000, there shouldn't be a problem.
__________________
David "If all else fails, read the instructions."
83 Wag Lt,BJ's 6"lift,360/727/Pinned229,D44/trac-lok,AMC20/lock-right,35/12.50 Baja MTZ,Pro-Jection EFI.
10$ NP229 fix http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=2520
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-15-2006, 07:45 AM
Serious Johnson's Avatar
Serious Johnson Serious Johnson is offline
AMC 4 OH! 1
 
Join Date: May 19, 2002
Location: Pumpkintown, South Carolina
Posts: 3,831
Post

It's possible to have a powerful and reasonably efficient FSJ. My Wag gets right at 20 MPG if I try hard, 15 or so farting around, and can drop to 10 with very heavy towing or lots of tire smoke. It's hit 22 MPG, but not on a verifiable round-trip. I'd estimate flywheel HP at around 250-275. The basic setup:

360, .030 over, +-9.25:1 compression.
Mildly ported/cleaned-up heads w/ 3-angle.
Stock (port matched) exhaust manifold w/ very quiet single 3".
Summit K8600 cam, Crane springs.
Performer intake, GM TBI w/ custom chip.
Stock air filter housing w/ cold air hose intact, K&N element.
Stock distributor (w/ advance locked-out), TFI.
T-18a manual tranny (probably where almost all the efficiency gain was acheived), 208, 3.73s, 33s, 4" lift.
Mobil-1 0W20 in the motor, Redline synthetic in the boxes.

When the thing was stock (360/727/229/2.72s/28s, no lift) it could eke-out 13 MPG @ 75 MPH, 11-12 @ 50 MPH (torque converter loss with the tall gears & non-lockup), and 7-9 in town. Towing or tire smoke were not options.

I recently rented a Toyota Sequoia, and its performance & efficiency were both just a slight tick below those of my old Wag, and it got stuck in my driveawy.

S.J.

[ April 15, 2006, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: Serious Johnson ]
__________________
"Carpe Mañana".

'83 Wagoneer
360, .030-over, K8600 cam, Crane springs, ported heads, Edelbrock Performer, G.M. TBI, TFI, 3" exhaust,
T-18a/208, D44/AMC 20 w/ limited slip in both, 3.73s, 33s, BDS 4" springs, Rancho 9000 shocks, etc., etc.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:03 AM.


Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
corner corner