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Old 09-25-2017, 08:00 AM
yossarian19 yossarian19 is offline
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Timing cover & chain sets ??

With a few frozen water pump bolts, I get the sinking feeling that I may wind up with the timing cover off the vehicle in the next year or so.

Thinking ahead... What do I need to look out for on the timing cover as far as needing to repair / replace it while it's off?
Summit Racing sells two different covers, both with pretty poor reviews stating leaks from something to do with the oil pump on one and distributor holes that don't line up on another.
I know Bulltear sells one but at $300 I'd rather fix or reuse the OEM if at all possible.
Then, timing chains, I think SC397 prefers the Cloyes? Or if you see this, SC, do I recall that you sell chains with the cam gear brazed over / slotted correctly ?
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  #2  
Old 09-25-2017, 10:58 PM
440sixpack 440sixpack is offline
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The repops are junk. Bulltear takes a turd and polishes it. it's still a turd in my book.

pits in the water channels can often be welded up. if your oil pump cavity is decent run with it. if not find a better original.

The timing chains are a non issue, any of them will work but I like Cloyes. just make sure you check the oil groove on any of them .
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  #3  
Old 09-26-2017, 05:54 AM
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I had someone tell me that Street Cloyes is not available any more. I just detailed a timing set and looked over a new timing cover for the same guy. I will post up pictures on what to look for when I get a chance but I am like 440sixpack, I prefer to rework a stock timing cover if at all possible.

FYI - I just bought a couple of the stock Summit sets and a couple of the double roller Milodon sets and both are just SA Gear units reboxed.

Last edited by SC/397 : 09-26-2017 at 07:45 AM.
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Old 09-26-2017, 06:53 AM
yossarian19 yossarian19 is offline
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Ok, good to know. I won't drop the extra coin if it's the same parts.
What exactly is the issue with the oil groove? I notice some cam gears are cut with more slots, some with fewer. I think it was two slots on the OEM part..? The units with too many grooves cause a problem?
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Old 09-26-2017, 07:09 AM
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This is the Summit single chain Timing Set. You can see the "SA" on it so it is basically a re-boxed SA Gear unit. I don't like the 6 grooves in front. Way too big and not needed. It is just a leak path. They are there to throw oil out to the chain but there is pleanty of oil at the bottom of the chain - if you remember to put the oil slinger back on.
SummitTC by Rick Jones, on Flickr
Here is the Milodon part with the same "SA" on it. Again, I ddon't like the 6 grooves in front so, I will braze 5 of them shut. I leave the 6th one at the key way alone.
MilodonTC by Rick Jones, on Flickr
After I brase the grooves shut.
GearRework by Rick Jones, on Flickr
This is a Isky cam. I had a old drill bit that I ground to a point to use as a indicator. I stick the indicator in the oil hole in the cam that feeds the distributor gears and then locate the timing gear on the woodruf key in the cam. The oil cavity in the Timing Gear is pretty close on this one. I will just touch it up a bit with my die grinder. Some are off half a slot depending on brand timing sets and brand of cam.
Milodon1 by Rick Jones, on Flickr.
I also clean out the oil transfer slot through the gear to the distributor gear. Some of these are really bad.
Mildon3 by Rick Jones, on Flickr

Last edited by SC/397 : 09-26-2017 at 07:16 AM.
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Old 09-28-2017, 09:04 AM
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Here is what I look for in regard to after market timing covers. I believe that is one from Bulltear. Regardless, I check them all out the same way.
The first thing I do is bench fit the distributor and oil pump with no gasket under the distributor.
Tcover1 by Rick Jones, on Flickr

The oil pump gear and the distributor line up ok in this cover. I have had to use 2 distributor gaskets on one of the after market distributors before it wouldn't bind on the oil pump gear. This stock dizzy is ok.
Tcover2 by Rick Jones, on Flickr

Then I temporily mount the timing cover to the block and stab the distributor and oil pump gear. Everything seems fine with no binding. If the cover was bad, I wouldn't be able to install the distributor. The distributor should not have to be forced to go in to the cover and mesh with the cam gear.
Tcover4 by Rick Jones, on Flickr

This is one area that I don't like on the after market timing covers. This little chamfer is nothing but a leak path and shouldn't be there. I help the issue out a little by hand lapping the surface.
Tcover5 by Rick Jones, on Flickr

I hand lap the gasket surface to get near zero end clearance with the gasket installed.
Tcover6 by Rick Jones, on Flickr

With the oil pump cover installed, the gear should spin easy by and and have very litle end play (up and down).
Tcover8 by Rick Jones, on Flickr

The last thing I do is chase all of the threads with a tap - even on a brand new one.
Tcover7 by Rick Jones, on Flickr

Last edited by SC/397 : 09-28-2017 at 09:33 AM.
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  #7  
Old 09-28-2017, 12:06 PM
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Beware there are 2 aftermarket covers

1. Taiwan
2. China

Any cover under $200 is a chinese knock off or a bad taiwanese cover. Even the taiwanese cover has evolved many times. It will have a batch code in the form of a letter on top the probe hole casting area.
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Old 09-28-2017, 01:02 PM
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I wonder what the difference in metalurgy is between the OE and the aftermarket ones.
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Old 09-29-2017, 06:45 AM
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Old 09-29-2017, 09:17 AM
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This is an interesting thread. Thanks to SC/397 for posting all the pictures and discussion.
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  #11  
Old 09-29-2017, 03:02 PM
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I've had good luck with the carquest double roller. Really good quality, appears to be made by cloyes
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  #12  
Old 11-01-2017, 09:23 PM
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SC/397...What is your opinion on using the steel mid plate between the timing cover oil pump housing and the oil filter housing?
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  #13  
Old 11-02-2017, 05:28 AM
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I don't use them but others have used them successfully. There is always going to be some ware either on the plate (or aluminum oil pump cover) or the gears. My opinion is that I would rather have shards of aluminum going through my engine over steel or stainless steel ones. Again, this is my opinion.
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  #14  
Old 11-17-2017, 09:49 PM
yossarian19 yossarian19 is offline
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Wow. I never said thank you!
Thanks! A bunch!
I made a .PDF of this page in case the linked pictures ever go dead. If anyone reads this in that dystopian future - PM me
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  #15  
Old 03-16-2019, 08:30 AM
rgsauger rgsauger is offline
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Thanks so much SC397! You are a stunning wealth of information and I sincerely appreciate how much you freely share it. I've owned my CJ7 for 21 years and getting ready to build a 360 to drop off in it. The 258 simply will not die so it will be kept should it ever be needed but I picked up a clean 360 out of a 79 grand Wagoneer that is currently sitting on my motor stand.
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  #16  
Old 03-18-2019, 01:35 AM
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A bad AMC 360 still makes more oil pressure than a good Buick 350.

Buick oil pumps are like AMC oil pumps but even stupider. Imagine the AMC pump but 2/3 the size. You have to build a Buick pump really tight for it to make any oil pressure what so ever, and I mean TIGHT. .002" of end clearance is good. Any tighter and the shrinkage of the aluminum housing in wintertime temperatures will eliminate the clearance and lock the pump solid. Then you strip the distributor gear the instant you turn the key to start the engine.

Ask me how I know.

That brings up another point. Think the AMC distributor gears are prone to stripping and wearing? HAHAHAHA! Buicks are worse. The gears are smaller and have far less oil supply. They strip and wear out so easy.


In other words the AMC is a fantastic engine in comparison.
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  #17  
Old 08-20-2019, 06:51 AM
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The original timing covers both AMC and Buick were made at Dohler Jarvis in Toledo. I saw them hanging in their display case about a hundred years ago.. Well, it was in the early 80's before they tore the building down anyway. AMC used 3 other companies as well. If I had a lot of time to waste, I could probably figure out which ones were made where and what years they were made in. The Dohler Jarvis ones have the "DJ" logo on them. Others were SKRL, CF, CFC, and when cryco took over I think they use a re-boxed after market one because they had no logo at all. I could be wrong on the cryco ones but they weren't as good as the rest.
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