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  #1  
Old 01-13-2008, 03:41 PM
budojeepr budojeepr is offline
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Diesel Swap Regulations - long post!

I've been considering a GM diesel swap into my Wagoneer for a while. After being bitten a couple times by the California smog laws (for instance, after having swapped a 1963 aluminum-block Buick V8 into my '80 VW Vanagon ), I decided to do a bit of research before throwing a bunch of hard-earned Benjamins down the toilet.

I've searched the forum threads extensively but haven't come up with anything definitive, only rumor and conjecture. It seems like the overall outlook is positive, but I'd like to post up some specific info and links, and see if anybody else out there has something specific to add to the discussion (feel free to add for states other than California!).

I'm going to try to stick to at least 1st-hand stuff - not "my sister's hairdresser's ex-con boyfriend's 3rd cellmate did a conversion to a Volvo in Nevada which is, I think, close to California" stories. I'm also going to avoid "search the forums on somedieselsite.com" junk. That's a cop-out, IMO.

So, for California:
DMV overview and FAQ:
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/vr/smogfaq.htm
http://www.dmv.org/ca-california/smog-check.php - 1/13/2008

Note the list of affected counties.

"Currently, smog inspections are required for all vehicles except diesel powered vehicles, electric, natural gas powered vehicles over 14,000 lbs, hybrids, motorcycles, trailers, or vehicles 1975 and older." - as of 1/13/2008

California Engine Replacement and Rebuilding Guidelines

Unfortunately, that page is not very specific. It seems the actual regulations and laws are subject to a bit of interpretation by the DMV personnel. I'm specifically looking for replacement of a smog-check-eligible engine with one that's not.

Jags That Run has an interesting page about this. In case the page goes away, here's an excerpt:
"Due to some misinformation, and exaggeration; people across the country think the California style smog laws are the end of engine swaps. Even in California, many automotive enthusiasts believe it is against the law to perform engine swaps.

"The basic intent of the California engine change laws is that when you do an engine swap, the new engine/transmission cannot pollute more than the original engine/transmission. This means the newly installed engine must be the same year (or newer) as the vehicle, and all emissions controls on the newly installed engine must be installed and functional. Also, you can't put a heavy-duty truck engine (over 6000 lb GVW) into an S-10 Truck because heavy-duty truck engines have less stringent emissions limits than light duty trucks.

"To get your engine swap approved, you must go to a Referee Station. The Referee Inspection is less than $40, and it is a benefit for people who do smog-legal engine changes because the engine change can be approved on a visual inspection, current smog laws, and common sense.

"The Referee Station will visually inspect the vehicle and engine/transmission for all the proper smog equipment, and inspect the engine to be sure it is the same year (or newer) as the vehicle. If all is there, they will put an 'Engine Identification' tag in the door jamb. The 'Engine Identification' tag is not mentioned on any registration papers or ownership papers. It is only on the vehicle."
Like I said, it sounds favorable.

One more source, a forum on tribe.net:
http://biodiesel.tribe.net/thread/9f...e-292f206d41b8

Check out the first-hand experience by the user "Pee Pee" at the bottom.
"OK, like I said earlier . . . easy shmeezy.

"I went to the DMV counter and told them I converted my gas MBZ to diesel and they told me to go outside and wait for the inspector. The inspector (he's usually only checking out VIN # of cars that come from out of state) takes a look all around, mainly at the VIN #'s, fills out a form and you take it inside, where they change the info. New registration now says D instead of G."
Also, here's information on how to contact the California referee:
http://www.smogcheck.ca.gov/StdPage....ee_centers.htm
(800) 622-7733

Finally, for those of us who cannot get to sleep by any other method, here's the location of the California vehicle code:
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/vcpdftoc.htm

I think I'll contact the referee's office first to see what they say.

Cheers, sorry about the long post, but I'm tired of searching! Anybody got something to add?
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Last edited by budojeepr : 04-14-2009 at 08:41 AM.
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Old 01-13-2008, 03:47 PM
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Yeah I sure don't envy you folks down in the PRC but on a side note...WA, OR, ID and MT are FULL! Please look elsewhere for refuge.
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Old 01-13-2008, 04:20 PM
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just call up your govenator he has a diesel wag
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Old 01-13-2008, 05:54 PM
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Do not go to the referee!

Quote:
Originally Posted by budojeepr
Check out the first-hand experience by the user "Pee Pee" at the bottom.
"OK, like I said earlier . . . easy shmeezy.

"I went to the DMV counter and told them I converted my gas MBZ to diesel and they told me to go outside and wait for the inspector. The inspector (he's usually only checking out VIN # of cars that come from out of state) takes a look all around, mainly at the VIN #'s, fills out a form and you take it inside, where they change the info. New registration now says D instead of G."


He's right. The only thing they might harass you about would be the GVWR of the donor vehicle. Since your plan is a GM diesel, that shouldn't be a problem since the 6.2/6.5 were availible in 1/2 ton trucks. Just make sure to tell them a newer model year than your waggy.

Fiil out section B of this form and go to DMV (rural office would be best-buracracy is more forgiving in small towns)


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  #5  
Old 01-13-2008, 09:51 PM
budojeepr budojeepr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainman
Do not go to the referee!
Fiil out section B of this form and go to DMV (rural office would be best-buracracy is more forgiving in small towns)
Sweeeeet! Redding is a fairly small town. You can actually talk to people at the DMV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe
Yeah I sure don't envy you folks down in the PRC but on a side note...WA, OR, ID and MT are FULL! Please look elsewhere for refuge.
Ouch!

I've come to the opinion that it's a matter of politics, and can change with the wind. Therefore, live somewhere you love, do your thing, and try not to p**s off Big Brother...
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Last edited by budojeepr : 01-13-2008 at 10:12 PM.
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  #6  
Old 04-15-2009, 05:51 PM
budojeepr budojeepr is offline
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Thumbs down Ca DMV experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainman
Do not go to the referee!


He's right. The only thing they might harass you about would be the GVWR of the donor vehicle. Since your plan is a GM diesel, that shouldn't be a problem since the 6.2/6.5 were availible in 1/2 ton trucks. Just make sure to tell them a newer model year than your waggy.

Fiil out section B of this form and go to DMV (rural office would be best-buracracy is more forgiving in small towns)



Well, I finally went to the DMV in Red Bluff (pop. 26,000 est. in 2007) today...

Registration of this Waggy is a long story. I decided to make it smog-legal in the PRK (People's Republik of Kalifornia) with the 258 six. I spent a few hundred dollars on a new 2bbl carb and all the smog/vacuum lines and inspections, and passed with flying colors in May 2006. They issued new license plates and registration valid through April 2007. I never received a renewal notice...and in July 2007 caught the top of the engine on fire due to oil leaking from the valve cover onto the intake manifold on a very hot day. So I parked it...

In May 2008 as the diesel conversion started to come together I went back to DMV to straighten things out since I'd never received a renewal. They said something was wrong and they had sent a letter (which I never received AFAIK). The nice lady let me pay my fees (including late fees) but said they'd lost the title (from Wyoming!!). Fellow IFSJA member Brad W was kind enough to re-apply for a title copy, which I received in Dec. 2008.

I used the Statement of Facts form with a check in the "diesel" box. The nice lady said the paperwork looked ok and we went to "verify" the vehicle which included a walkaround and a look at the VIN plate in the doorjamb. Then we went back inside, where she conferred with a senior colleague. The problem was the diesel checkbox - nothing on the vehicle indicated it was a diesel, and previous registration said "gas".

They asked me if I'd converted it. In true George Washington fashion, I said, "Yes." Don't know what else I should have said...

She said they'd register me through Sept. 2009 (after payment of fees, of course) but I'd still have to go see the referee before then.

So, I'm still up the creek but at least they gave me a little plastic kiddie pool paddle.

I'll update when I talk to a referee...
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Old 04-16-2009, 10:32 PM
Rocket Dog Rocket Dog is offline
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OK, so..... what happens if you take it to a ref station now? I mean, you are technically legal now, right? Would the possible do a check only, kind of like a "smog only".

You know just to check if you will have to sell your toy to someone in the just belt when you do have to go?

I wounder how different this is in so cal?
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  #8  
Old 04-16-2009, 10:47 PM
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babywag babywag is online now
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My .02

Discussed a diesel swap in great detail with our local smog referee, I was told it would be a straightforward process.

Do the swap, bring in receipts for the engine/tranny including the VIN# of the vehicle they came from.

He inspects it, if everything looks good, he gives me all the paperwork to bring to the DMV.

The DMV can do nothing to change the status/registration of a vehicle subject to smog.
It has to be done by a referee station.

Keep us posted, I have a 6.5 oil burner/4L80E/NV242 dying to jump in between my frame rails.

I talked to the same guy a while back regarding a "legal" TBI swap.
@ that time I decided TBI was too much of a hassle due to smog.
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  #9  
Old 04-17-2009, 10:16 AM
budojeepr budojeepr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babywag
My .02

Discussed a diesel swap in great detail with our local smog referee, I was told it would be a straightforward process.

Do the swap, bring in receipts for the engine/tranny including the VIN# of the vehicle they came from.

He inspects it, if everything looks good, he gives me all the paperwork to bring to the DMV.
Thanks for the tip. I'll see. I think the donor rig was from Oregon. That may be an obstacle. Also, the engine was a Goodwrench crate motor installed by an outfit in, of all places, Houston. However, I think for '84 all I need is an EGR and CDR (which is the equivalent of the PCV).

Quote:
The DMV can do nothing to change the status/registration of a vehicle subject to smog.
It has to be done by a referee station.
Noted.

Quote:
Keep us posted, I have a 6.5 oil burner/4L80E/NV242 dying to jump in between my frame rails.
Well, if I can get this legal here, I'll be in Fat City. I love to drive this thing. It's "me". I wouldn't kick a new Corvette or Camaro or Challenger or [pick one] out of the driveway, but chillin' in a busted-a** Wagoneer sleeper suits me just fine.

Quote:
I talked to the same guy a while back regarding a "legal" TBI swap.
@ that time I decided TBI was too much of a hassle due to smog.
I did that for my '69 Gladiator. In the future, I'm looking for pre-'76 rigs.
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Old 04-17-2009, 12:27 PM
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if there is an EPA tag on the engine (usually on a diesel there is) that specifies the engine class, fuel type, type/year of emissions that it meets and vehicular application DMV will certify it easily. As well the tag usually includes the hp rating, timing requires and valve adjustments for emissions that year also. using the word conversion always sets off bells and whistles

Best to just go in and have the vin plate verifying guy fill out his paperwork as though you are a new applicant. you will bypass all the nonsense that comes up when betty behind the counter get all concerned at the word conversion. tell them the fuel type has been incorrect for awhile and that they need to check the engine (if there is a tag ont eh engine) and change it.

Worked for me on the last 11 diesel conversions. and i am in the Bay area smog check sphere of influence. Only had one issue and it was my first when i said it was converted at one point in its life. referee is the one who told me that he didnt need to look at it, that if i approached it as though i just needed DMV to verify the vin and check fuel type that the system would accomodate me with far less headache. He said the key is the epa tag already on the motor. if they see that and it specifies fuel type as diesel and the rig is a pre 1997 it is pretty straight forward deal
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  #11  
Old 04-17-2009, 01:05 PM
budojeepr budojeepr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dusty
if there is an EPA tag on the engine (usually on a diesel there is) that specifies the engine class, fuel type, type/year of emissions that it meets and vehicular application DMV will certify it easily.
This is very heartening. Where might I find an EPA tag on this beast?

I know where the engine number is (cast into the block), but I haven't seen an EPA tag. I cleaned the whole thing up when I had the engine out and apart...

Quote:
...He said the key is the epa tag already on the motor. if they see that and it specifies fuel type as diesel and the rig is a pre 1997 it is pretty straight forward deal
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Old 04-17-2009, 01:13 PM
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on a 6.2 i believe they were on the valve covers but its been awhile. you might be able to re-order the sticker from GM or in a few cases people have been known to find a friend with a sticker printer that recreated the epa sticker close enough (not exactly legal but if it looks authentic you might get by) and then made it look like it had been there for eons. on Ford diesels its on a few of the timing cover edges and/or on the diverside valve covers as a sticker with ford and IH labeled on there then the HP, EPA model year, vehicle class ect. on a cummins its right in front of the injection pump driverside of the motor timing cover edge two tags one for EPA, Class of vehicle (which you'll need a 1/2 ton & chevy blazer version of the EPA sticker for a light duty model on road use) & Model year the other tag is the HP tag with model year, HP, and valve timing. You'll have to have this sticker when you have DMV verify the fuel type otherwise you'll end up at a referee and have all sorts of head aches
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  #13  
Old 06-03-2009, 10:39 AM
budojeepr budojeepr is offline
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Update on California diesel registration

Well, I went to DMV with the form referred to previously. They came out and looked at the Jeep, and since they couldn't find any sticker that said it was a diesel, they rejected me, said I needed to go to the BAR referee.

I called the BAR; they advised me they'd just have to verify it's a diesel and send me back to DMV. I happily made an appointment (for tomorrow June 4 2009).

A few minutes ago a nice feller from the BAR called and said I might find it an illegal swap:

In 1984 GM did not offer a diesel in a light-duty (<8500lb GVWR) vehicle. The Jeep is a light-duty vehicle. You cannot swap an engine from a heavy-duty vehicle into a light-duty one. End of story.

The referee was going to be contacting the state on a separate issue and said he'd run it by them to see what recourse I might have. I'll post up when I hear more. But for now, it seems like this diesel project might be up for sale to an interested person out-of-state.



Or I could find a pre-'77 Wagoneer to swap my drivetrain into?
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Old 06-03-2009, 10:45 AM
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my old 1983 chevy blazer was a 1/2 ton that had a gvw of less than 8500 and came with a 6.2.

But like i said above you need the EPA sticker for DMV to be able to verify things. most referees know very little about diesel swaps.

get the EPA sticker from a chevy blazer or 1/2 with a diesel go back to DMV without the sticker you are fighting a battle you will continue to loose.

Chevy installed the 6.2 in 1/2 tons from 1982-1997 with a few years omitted. you need that sticker &/or the vehicle vin number to show DMV that the engine is truely a diesel and that it came from the proper class of vehicles. A donor rig with a 1/2 ton vin # and a diesel should be the ticket
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Last edited by dusty : 06-04-2009 at 11:44 AM.
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Old 06-03-2009, 11:59 AM
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So my county here in AZ. is nonsmog, would I be able to title it here as diesel and then resell it to someone in Ca.?
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Old 06-03-2009, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaber
So my county here in AZ. is nonsmog, would I be able to title it here as diesel and then resell it to someone in Ca.?

No they do a vin plate verification and then inspect all out of state vehicles for the epa sticker when brought in
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Old 06-03-2009, 02:14 PM
budojeepr budojeepr is offline
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Thanks, Dusty, I'll see if I can hunt down a sticker.

Update: I just called the local GM dealer. When I told him the referee had said there was no GM truck with < 8500lb GVWR and a diesel, he flatly said, "That's false. I show lots of 1/2-ton trucks with 6.2s."

'C' engines were in 1/2-ton trucks, 'K' engines were in 3/4-ton and up.

I might be able to argue the case...

However, when I asked about an EPA sticker, he said he'd look, but even with the donor truck's VIN replacement stickers are not available.

Still tryin'...
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Old 06-03-2009, 03:27 PM
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Could have sworn Pontiac offered a diesel in their 84 Bonneville and Parisienne.
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Old 06-03-2009, 03:32 PM
budojeepr budojeepr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georgiajake
Could have sworn Pontiac offered a diesel in their 84 Bonneville and Parisienne.
Well, according to the ever-accurate Wikipedia, the Bonneville was offered in 1984 with the 5.7 Olds diesel V8.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac...ille#1982-1986
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldsmob...ine#LF9_Diesel

Don't know if the referee would consider it or just blow cigar smoke in my face and laugh.
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Old 06-03-2009, 03:49 PM
budojeepr budojeepr is offline
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More info from Wikipedia about GMC trucks/diesels:

- - -

6.2L diesel V8:
The original 6.2 L (379 cu in) Diesel V8 was introduced in 1982 in the Chevrolet/GMC C/K trucks.

6.5L diesel V8:
There are several GM 6.5 liter diesel engine production options. The Turbocharged L56, (VIN "S") was used in all 1/2 ton (1500) and light duty 3/4 ton (2500) trucks. Heavy duty 3/4 ton and 1 ton trucks used the Turbocharged L65 (VIN "F") engine.

The L56 is emissions controlled with EGR and catalytic converters. The L65 engine has no EGR, and has no catalytic converter.

The '92 and '93 model years used a 6.5 specific Stanadyne DB-2 mechanical injection pump.

Chevrolet/GMC C/K trucks:
In 1982 the 6.2L diesel V8 was added.
1979-1984 GM parts book LT Truck 52A Rev84.1 PG33

GMC Surburbans:
Both 2WD and 4WD models, designated "C" and "K" were offered, as well as one-half ton and three-quarter ton ("10" and "20" on the Chevy, "1500" and "2500" for GMC) models. The one ton model designation was the C or K 30 for Chevrolet and 3500 for GMC.

The 6.2 L (376 cu in) Detroit Diesel V8 engine was also available from 1982-onwards.

- - -

Not much to go on...but I'd love to get my mitts on this, which is referenced on the Wiki page:

1979-1984 GM parts book LT Truck 52A Rev84.1
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