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  #1  
Old 07-02-2014, 10:12 AM
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Dodge 360 FI to AMC 360 conversion??

Not sure if anyone has done this or if its even possible for the average wrench, so pardon my uninformedness.

What years/models did the Dodge 360 have FI and is it a good system?

What would be required to swap it onto a AMC 360?

I'm asking because it seems like a better option than running a GM TBI which wasn't on a 360, but a 350, and apparently needs a way different PROM (is that right?) to be burned because there are enough differences from how GM programmed their 350 TBIs to run verse how an AMC 360 needs to run.
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Old 07-02-2014, 10:44 AM
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The main reason people use GM is for cost, easy to install, lots of aftermarket support.

Going with a Dodge system would require custom intake/fuel rails etc.
It would also require tuning.
The dodge engine = apples, amc = oranges.
Probably cheaper to swap engines than trying to retrofit dodge FI to amc engine.
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Old 07-02-2014, 11:59 AM
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Ah...okay. So the Dodge system is a more advanced system, No TBI, but actual MPFI sort of set-up?

You think it would be money saved to try and retro one on an Edelbrock Torquer intake versus buying Edelbrock's MPFI kit for 3 billion dollars?

Or a wash by the time tuning and parts hunting is done?
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Old 07-02-2014, 12:57 PM
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The only way I would consider a Dodge swap in (injected) would be from a Grand Cherokee Orvis. The Dodge truck ones have a different trans (starter on driver's side where it's too tight to the steering) I'd also run an aftermarket EFI controller.

They had a TBI in the '80s which SUCKED!
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Old 07-02-2014, 08:36 PM
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Did they actually run MPFI on the 360 magnums in the trucks?
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Old 07-02-2014, 09:22 PM
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I understand your reasoning completely, and it makes sense, but.....

You can put any EFI system on anything; the problems comes down to tuning the ECU. I would wager that you would still need to tune the Dodge system to the requirements of the AMC - even though they are the same displacement, the fuel maps would be quite different due to cam profiles, etc. For example, if the Dodge needs 12ms of fuel at (2,000rpm, 60kPa), the AMC might need 10ms. Or 14ms. Engines are weird that way.

Here's a hypothetical: Imagine (if you will) plugging the stock Dodge 5.9 MAP ECU (190hp max iirc) into a Hemi 5.7 (345hp) - think it would supply the right amount of fuel?

Now, if you used the MAF (max 245hp) ECU from a Grand Cherokee 5.9, eventually it may tune itself, but that's besides the point. Acceleration enrichments, cold start parameters, etc. would all be way off. Not to mention timing (the 5.9 JGC required 91 octane).

As a general rule, EFI systems are never "bolt and go".

For the same reasons the Chevy 350 is the standard "go to" engine when people need to find something to swap into that '31 Ford Coupe/hot rod/you-name-it, GM TBI is the standard "go to" EFI system for low-hp applications: it is well documented, has been hacked literally to bits, has a huge support network, and has all kinds of parts available, both OEM and aftermarket. It's also dead-nuts reliable, and can even make >300hp if the TB is sent to the right people.

Do a search for MAP vs MAF for more info on tuning base maps to a particular engine. MAF adjusts to changes like cam swaps very easily, but you still need to have it adjust and save the base map.

The goal for my next 401 is to have MAF MPFI and CNP. As you alluded to, just about any intake manifold can be drilled for injectors - you don't necessarily have to buy the Edelbrock MPFI one. I plan on going with an Air Gap or similar. The problem all comes down to the controller and tuning that controller.
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  #7  
Old 07-02-2014, 10:27 PM
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Tuning aside, I have wondered about the viability of using at least some of the hard parts.

We have a 5.2 MPFI ZJ in the driveway. Someday I'll remember to measure the fuel injector spacing and see how it compares to the AMC manifold.

Has anyone here compared an LA (small block Mopar) or 52.2/5.9 Magnum intake manifold to an AMC manifold?
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Old 07-02-2014, 11:16 PM
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On my son's 5.9 Grand Cherokee, we used the 3 keyway timing set to retard the cam and switched to NGK BKR6EK plugs to kill the ping on regular fuel at sea level. They ran TBI till '92. The '93 Grand Cherokee was the first production Dodge MPFI V8 AFAIK.
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Old 07-02-2014, 11:34 PM
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That sounds like a very expensive way to save twenty cents a gallon!
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Old 07-02-2014, 11:52 PM
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Timing chain needed doing anyways. (200,000 KM) and the rest was tuneup. He drives 300 KM a day for work hauling carpentry equipment and crew.
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Old 07-03-2014, 09:05 AM
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The Dodge computers of that era are basically un-workable. Guys tuning with fuel pressure, etc. As soon as they reach any sort of performance level they ditch the factory setup and go aftermarket standalone. The GM system is by far the most workable of the era.
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  #12  
Old 07-03-2014, 11:01 AM
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Interesting and informative replies, guys. Thank you. I'm not even a FI "Noob" since I don't have, never have had, anything w/ FI on it.

I was operating on the basis that a modern MPFI system would be essentially self-learning or at least Laptop tunable, versus a Howell GM TBI being a basic FI system with the old style: "What, that last custom burnt chip doesn't run right? Okay, I'll burn you ANOTHER chip" set-up. And looking at possible cost savings for getting aftermarket control units for the Howel TBI (the MegaSquirt has been mentioned several times, I think with Holley Projection too) versus just plugging my Laptop into a junkyard salvaged Dodge 5.9L MPFI system on a Edelbrock intake bolted to a AMC 360. Howell buy in I around $1600 now. What's a megasquirt run? Versus if I bought a junked 90s GCherk and pulled the FI system off that...worth it? I don't know. Didn't have anything to go on to start pricing parts for the Dodge/Jeep stuff.

The difference in Chev 350 versus AMC 360 are numerous. Chev 350s had crap heads with smaller valves in a lot of cases, smaller rocker ratios and were generally set-up to be WAY less performance oriented and cleaner burning than the AMC 360 in early smog years. I do believe that changed some and the AMC becme the dog in the late 1970s through the end of its run in 1991 where as GM made decent power in the 80s through to the early 90s when TBI was phased out for smarter FI systems.

I had forgotten the 90s G-Cherks used the Dodge 5.9L. and some of them did make really decent power for the time.


The intake runners on Small and Big Dodge engines are paired like SBC and AMC V8s.

any further discussion on this before I post my next FI topic????
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  #13  
Old 07-03-2014, 12:15 PM
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The intake of the 5.9L Magnum is shaped like the long runners were wound around a barrel, giving it the torque that long runners like dual crossrams did. It was an AMC engineer, who planned that for the AMC 360 to go EFI, that was modded for Mopar motors.
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Old 07-03-2014, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinkerjeep
"What, that last custom burnt chip doesn't run right? Okay, I'll burn you ANOTHER chip" set-up.
That is part of the beauty of a laptop programmable aftermarket setup. They allow you to tweak the programming in a few moments without swapping any parts out. There are advantages to hacked/chipped OEM management as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinkerjeep
... junkyard salvaged Dodge 5.9L MPFI system on a Edelbrock intake bolted to a AMC 360.
I think all you'd be able to use would be the fuel rails and injectors, throttle body (on an adapter), and maybe fuel pump, etc. The mapping of the Mopar ECU would probably be farther out than you'd want to deal with.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinkerjeep
What's a megasquirt run? Versus if I bought a junked 90s GCherk and pulled the FI system off that...worth it?
There are several versions of MS and cost varies significantly. I think I have about $500-600 in my MegaSquirt, including the LC2 wideband. This is on my MR2, not FSJ. That car already had EFI so I was able to reuse the existing wiring harness, fuel delivery system, manifold, etc., when I first went to MS.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinkerjeep
I had forgotten the 90s G-Cherks used the Dodge 5.9L. and some of them did make really decent power for the time.
Even our little 318 ZJ is plenty adequate for the driving we do. It is very flexible and willing to work at any reasonable RPM. Some of that is no doubt attributable to the very long runners in the intake manifold.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinkerjeep
The intake runners on Small and Big Dodge engines are paired like SBC and AMC V8s.
I'll try to remember to compare cylinder pair spacing to the AMC. SBC stuff is different enough that you probably wouldn't want to use SBC fuel rails on a converted AMC manifold.
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Old 07-03-2014, 11:08 PM
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I considered doing a 5.2L conversion from a '94 Grand Cherokee (currently has a bad O/D planetary) that I can get for $700 but I'm too broke and unable to work to think about it. now.
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Old 07-04-2014, 02:36 PM
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WHEN you heal...if you decide to do a 5.2L FI swap onto an AMC360, definitely post it.

I think GM gets a lot of "press" because of the "Chevy-to-Jeep" swap mentality. But maybe they really do have more practical options for swapping? I posted this topic to see if there are other FI swap-mongers out there who seriously consider going with the Dodge system.

I think the Ford systems are too specialized, plus the intake ports are not paired...and the goofy long-tube manifold runners might be a tricky variable to compensate for if system is swapped on a Edelbrock Torquer or even Performer(Airgap) intake.

Maybe some enterprising young machinist needs to start making specific long-runner FI AMC intake manifolds...or cutting up GM/Dodge systems and welding them to Edelbrock intake base-plate/head-flanges.
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Old 07-04-2014, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinkerjeep
...or cutting up GM/Dodge systems and welding them to Edelbrock intake base-plate/head-flanges.
It wouldn't be simpler just to have some aluminum flanges machined up?
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Old 07-04-2014, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkMonohue
It wouldn't be simpler just to have some aluminum flanges machined up?

Not if you have a bunch of Edelbrock intakes and don't want to spend $3-400 for a shop to just build .5" thick intake valley with 8 ports in it...and a water crossover/T-stat housing base.
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Old 07-05-2014, 07:49 AM
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OK let me see if this helps. My 87 has a drivetrain from a 99 durango. Custom motor mounts and a wrangler tank are the only difficult parts to overcome. Take out of donor, drop into yours. Wire PCM for power. Use the stock harnesses. Down the road you go. Its all stock. No MAF to deal with like on a LS conversion. Open element air cleaner. Dakota digital adapter to take the cruise control signal to convert to speed sensor input for PCM. That being said. To adapt a Mopar EFI to AMC is going to be an exercise in futility and spending lots of money.
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Old 07-05-2014, 08:27 AM
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I have little to add in this great discussion, other than this:
My stock 97 Grand Cherokee with 5.2L (only k&n CAI & slightly hotter ignition upgrades) comfortably towed my YJ mutt from NJ to VA at interstate speeds and handled the task much better than I ever expected.
GVW on the GC is 4000+ where the GW is 4500-ish. Wheelbase is only about 3" longer. Both are essentially AWD.
I would think the engine would make a reasonable swap as a whole, but no idea about adapting parts and such.
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