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  #1  
Old 12-23-2012, 09:58 PM
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360 or 401

So I have a chance to get my hands on another 360 that I plan on rebuilding while it's out of the vehicle.

My question here is, is it worth building up a 360 over a 401?

Before you answer, here's what I have planned (to maximize potential on the 360):

- Addition of an electric water pump (do away with belt)
- Addition of electric dual fans (again with another belt)
- Using roller rockers instead of stock ones
- Going with higher compression piston head(s)
- Would like to go with a 4bbl carb but need to investigate smog complications
- Would LOVE to go with long tube headers but probably won't happen because of smog
- Also wouldn't mind supercharging but now I'm obviously just peeing in the wind since I can't find any such thing in existence for the 360.

Does this sound like a good direction for the 360? How much potential does one have? What I REALLY want is a diesel swap but being in California, it's just not in the cards smog-wise unfortunately. I'm looking for maximum torque and an increase in HP for whatever I can squeeze out of it.

Since I'm asking a million questions, is switching fuel injection worth it? (I'm not rock crawling here but I want a halfway capable rig for both towing and heavy duty camping.) I know zip about tuning a carb. Not that I couldn't learn but the more I read about it, the more I think some people have the "touch" and others never will. Unclear as to what catagory I might fall into even though I am somewhat mechanically inclined.

Or hold out for a 401? Thoughts?
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  #2  
Old 12-23-2012, 10:00 PM
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Meth kit?

Also, is it possible to add a meth injection kit to the 360 or is this soley a fuel injected thing? Sorry for my ignorance on such matters.
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  #3  
Old 12-23-2012, 11:00 PM
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Oh and a more aggressive cam!!!!! (Summit I guess?). How could I have forgotten that?
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  #4  
Old 12-23-2012, 11:11 PM
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It is absolutely reasonable to build a 360 as opposed to a 401.
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  #5  
Old 12-23-2012, 11:38 PM
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why electric w/p? how are you going to drive the alternator or a/c?
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  #6  
Old 12-23-2012, 11:57 PM
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X2 for the electric water pump
If i was not really budget limited, i would spend $$ for a roller cam to have high lifts without increasing too much the durations. Would be great for Torque.
It's amazing how much you are in favor of diesels now. I am fed up with diesels, 80% of the cars are diesel powered over here, and now some people begin to say that it's not good for health
To return to the main subject , i think also it is reasonable to build a 360, the 360 has a good potential as it was often proved by engines builders.
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Last edited by mud89 : 12-24-2012 at 12:04 AM.
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  #7  
Old 12-24-2012, 12:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manimal
why electric w/p? how are you going to drive the alternator or a/c?

Well I was thinking that the water pump has got to be one of the bigger drains on the engine in terms of hp. It may just be that I cannot do it in terms of where the belts run. It was just a thought to try to free up hp.
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  #8  
Old 12-24-2012, 12:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flashfoto
Well I was thinking that the water pump has got to be one of the bigger drains on the engine in terms of hp. It may just be that I cannot do it in terms of where the belts run. It was just a thought to try to free up hp.

And how are you going to POWER the electric water pump? With the ALTERNATOR, of course! Which is POWERED by the ENGINE.

The ONLY way it will "free up" horsepower is if you do not have an alternator and run the electric pump on battery power alone. This is usually only feasible for drag racing vehicles that run for short periods of time.

There is no free lunch. The whole idea of "freeing up" horsepower is for drag racers only and a HUGE myth otherwise. Remember back to your high school or college physics class class. The energy HAS to come from SOMEWHERE!

I'd check to see if you really can put in a 401 in place of a 360 in CA. They seem pretty strict out there.
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  #9  
Old 12-24-2012, 12:46 AM
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yeah I'm glad you posted this flashphoto, things were getting kinda boring around here. I had to think about a lot of my answers because I want to be honest but I don't want to stifle creativity. Trying different things is how we find things that are better. The following are just my opinions so please don't take this as nay-saying.

Electric water pump: It's for dragsters that have no belt driven accessories. The battery runs the water pump for the duration of the race and can continue circulating water after you shut off the engine. I wouldn't trust one for continuous operation. Even if the parasitic drag of a belt driven water pump is more than the increased load on the alternator, the difference is negligible compared to other parasitic drags like your automatic transmission. In addition, it's going to be heck routing belts for your alt, power steering pump, and air pump as required by your emissions. Last, since you'll have an electric motor where the water pump pulley should be, you'd have nothing to hook a mechanical fan to, necessitating...

Dual electric fans: I think these are a great upgrade. Since anybody halfway motivated can scrounge up the junkyard parts to do (Taurus and Caravan have both been done here) it for less than a parts store fan clutch replacement, the benefits are well worth the effort. More air over more surface area of the rad, shut off switch for deep water, etc etc.

Roller rockers: Another good idea. True rollers are for high rpm screamers. The stock stamped rockers are cheap junk that can't be adjusted, put uneven force on the valve stems and flex under load. I advocate middle of the road. Summit and Comp both make forged steel roller tip rockers that fit our engines, you just have to have the stud bosses on your heads milled down 0.2" to make room for the guide plates. Then you'll be able to adjust the rockers, put even force on the valve stems and the forged rockers won't deflect under pressure.

High compression pistons: Yes. 9.5-10:1.

4bbl carb: if emissions will let you, pick your flavor. If not the 2150 is a good all around DD carb and great off road. My swap to 4bbl was more out of convenience rather than preference. I haven't done enough wheeling yet to decide if I like my Holley as much.

Long tube headers: Don't last no matter what name is on them. Late 70's exhaust manifolds is where it's at. They flow great, have holes for air injection, and last as long as, well, stock manifolds. You'll have to have a y-pipe made to clear your trans and drivehshafts, and might have clearance issues with the starter, but I'm pretty sure they will work with a custom y-pipe.

Supercharger: Yes, you are peeing in the wind. Simantics could be discussed for eons, but I don't know of a single supercharged FSJ ever used for occasional towing and heavy duty camping, and I imagine there's a reason.

Fuel injection: I'm 50/50 on that one. Blake will tell you that a junkyard TBI can be put together for the same cost as a reman'd carb, so $ vs $, it can be a wash. Ristow renewed my love of carbs personally, so I'd rather have something I dink with using a screwdriver instead of a laptop, but that might just be my fear of computers talking.

Water/Methanol injection: See supercharger. It can more than double combustion chamber pressures regardless of temps. This is good if you way above your powerband and losing volumetric efficiency; like a rally car in a straightaway. Do this while your lugging the engine IN it's powerband, like towing a boat up a hill, and you're just asking to throw a rod through the block.

More aggressive cam: YES. I bought a K8600, ran it in and got scared since everyone at the time had them going flat (later found to be ZDDP related) and switched to an MTA-1. Ristow told me it's a Performer clone and another member told me it's still being made by sealed power. I really like the MTA-1.
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79 J-10 - The Money Badger!
304/T18/D20/D44s
What's been did:
Holley 4160/Ede' S.P.2.P.
MSD Streetfire based TFI
Custom-hack gauge cluster
Razor swap
Fancy exhaust (Thrush Muffler)
2 knob tape deck!
3" homebuilt lift
Half a hillbilly paint job
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  #10  
Old 12-24-2012, 01:26 AM
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Since you're in the smog state, any change you make is supposed to be CARB approved. Right down to the stock air cleaner. The good part is that they have no way of checking the internals, only visual check.

Port a set of free flow manifolds. Yes, they're still going to be crappy compared to headers. But I don't know of any legal headers now that they quit making edelbrocks.

Mild performance cam. They won't know. No harm, no foul.

Port stock heads/intake. Just like the cam and ported manifolds. They'll never know the difference.

The stock carb can be re-worked for better flow and performance. The stock classes in drag racing and circle track have been doing it forever.

Higher compression, absolutely. 9.5:1 would be about right.

Don't waste $$ on roller rockers, you're not going to be running an aggressive enough cam to where the stockers would be a problem. They're worth maybe 5 hp.

That being said, I don't think you'll benefit much from a 401 over a 360 since it's going to be choked out by the rules california makes you abide by. But you could certainly run one and they would never know the difference.

Like others have said, that'd be a "no" on the electric water pump.


Quote:
Originally Posted by REDONE
Water/Methanol injection: See supercharger. It can more than double combustion chamber pressures regardless of temps. This is good if you way above your powerband and losing volumetric efficiency; like a rally car in a straightaway. Do this while your lugging the engine IN it's powerband, like towing a boat up a hill, and you're just asking to throw a rod through the block.

I think you're thinking of nitrous? Water/meth is used to cool intake air temps and increase octane to make the engine less susceptible to damaging itself. Mostly used on turbo and supercharged cars that have high intake temps and high cylinder pressure. In the instance of towing a boat up a hill, water/meth injection would help prevent knock under load and be much safer for the engine.
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  #11  
Old 12-24-2012, 01:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghinmi

I think you're thinking of nitrous? Water/meth is used to cool intake air temps and increase octane to make the engine less susceptible to damaging itself. Mostly used on turbo and supercharged cars that have high intake temps and high cylinder pressure. In the instance of towing a boat up a hill, water/meth injection would help prevent knock under load and be much safer for the engine.

I may be right or I may be wrong. It's my understanding that the water/meth injection both removes heat AND increases pressure, as the heat it removes is LATENT heat, the heat used to effect a phase change in the water to steam without an increase in the water's temp. Ambient steam takes up 1000 times as much space as liquid water, so in removing heat, it increases pressure. At the very least I know that this was it's purpose in pre WWII aircraft to get heavily laden bombers up off of short runways, and that it all but dissappeared from the forced induction scene at the advent of the intercooler.

Considering the circles you run in, you probably know more about what it's used for these days.
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2012 Winner of the Prestigious Ouray Cast Iron Butt Award
79 J-10 - The Money Badger!
304/T18/D20/D44s
What's been did:
Holley 4160/Ede' S.P.2.P.
MSD Streetfire based TFI
Custom-hack gauge cluster
Razor swap
Fancy exhaust (Thrush Muffler)
2 knob tape deck!
3" homebuilt lift
Half a hillbilly paint job
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  #12  
Old 12-24-2012, 01:48 AM
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REDONE & Ghinmi - Very solid info! Thanks! Some of which I kind of had an idea about. I really didn't know about the electric H20 pump though so thanks for setting me straight on that.

Well at least now I have a solid starting point.
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Old 12-24-2012, 02:23 AM
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Absolutely, it increases cylinder pressure. Not enough to make a ton more power in our applications though. But by cooling the charge and increasing octane, detonation resistance increases. I'm having a hard time finding a pressure chart on the internet but detonation causes a HUGE spike in cylinder pressure that's much more damaging than the slightly increased overall cylinder pressure. Which is why it was used in old gas engine motor homes and such for climbing hills and other heavy loading situations where they would otherwise eat themselves up.

It's still used pretty heavily in turbocharged and supercharged applications. It's making a comeback on street cars. A big air to air intercooler in front of the radiator will heat soak and lose efficiency. A lot of people have found they make significantly more power with water/meth in real-world conditions. You see a lot of big hp (multiple thousand hp) drag cars with water/meth too. Less parts, plumbing, weight, etc. And it seems to be working well for them. But, as is usual to racing stuff, it has little meaningful use to the majority of Jeep owners.
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Old 12-24-2012, 02:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghinmi
But, as is usual to racing stuff, it has little meaningful use to the majority of Jeep owners.

I'm glad it has meaning to at least one Jeep owner. There's no denying your vids are WAY more entertaining than mine! And a heck of a lot more expensive judging by the last one you posted!

When it comes to making stupid horsepower with an AMC, I fully concede you know more than me.
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79 J-10 - The Money Badger!
304/T18/D20/D44s
What's been did:
Holley 4160/Ede' S.P.2.P.
MSD Streetfire based TFI
Custom-hack gauge cluster
Razor swap
Fancy exhaust (Thrush Muffler)
2 knob tape deck!
3" homebuilt lift
Half a hillbilly paint job
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  #15  
Old 12-24-2012, 02:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REDONE
I'm glad it has meaning to at least one Jeep owner. There's no denying your vids are WAY more entertaining than mine! And a heck of a lot more expensive judging by the last one you posted!

When it comes to making stupid horsepower with an AMC, I fully concede you know more than me.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have a use for it either. Just spend a bit of time helping with cars that do. I'm just a small fry when it comes to making power with an AMC. I know there's more power to be made because plenty of people have made more than me, lol.
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Old 12-24-2012, 04:57 AM
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I think the 360 runs nicer than the 401's. i would not hesitate to put a hi performance 360 together. lighter rotating assembly,shorter stroke.


if i weren't a single income family of 7,all my motors would have roller tip rockers at minimum if not full roller. roller rockers retain the lift ratio thru the arc. the roller tips save the guides. the cost is the only downside obviously.

otherwise,nothing to add that wasn't hit already above.
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Old 12-24-2012, 08:55 AM
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Doesn't your 89 become excempt from emissions in 2014? If so, I would start collecting parts now with a plan to put the engine in after you become exempt.

Plan what you want in advance. The most important part of engine builds is to 'match' the parts. Also, bigger is not always better (carbs, cam lift, compression for example). And decide where you want to spend your money. The good example above is rocker arms. You don't really need full roller rockers and they add a lot of cost. Roller tip rockers are not a bad idea.

Ask lots of questions. These guys are good at answering them.
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Old 12-24-2012, 08:59 AM
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Were I building a 360, I'd build the 360 stroker like Ristow. I've built a 401 that is in the current project and I've got a 360 sitting in the bed of another jeep. That one, if I use it, will most likely be a stroker.

Heck, I could even make an argument for building a 304 if that was what you already had.
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Old 12-24-2012, 09:15 AM
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You might also consider parts availability.I bought almost every rusted out jeep in a 50 mile radius to keep my fleet running..and only had 1 401 show up in the bunch.360's are easier to locate in case you have an issue and dont want to have the rig down while the search is on.
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Old 12-24-2012, 09:21 AM
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I may go with the roller tip rockers if anything. I'm just looking to prolong the life of the internals while trying to eek out whatever efficiency and performance gains I can.

As far as becoming smog exempt in 2014, THAT would be a dream come true but that can't possibly be right? If so, it's going to be a Cummins powered turbo diesel for me in the not too distant future. Either that or an LS crate stroker depending on funds.

All good info guys. Keep it coming!

The other thing I would really like is a different transmission. Realistically, a 4 speed with overdrive would be nice but I'm even more of a noob when it comes to that. My 3 speed is eating a hole through my wallet gas wise. Does such an option exist with proper gearing to both tow AND have the ability to reach 80mph while saving gas not towing?
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